From edc at remedy.com Mon Jan 13 15:55:14 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 teardown and DQ at Moroso Message-ID: <199701132251.OAA21464@lists1.best.com> I think most of you have already seen this, but for those who havent.... Julie Cook sent this out eariler today. I'm forwarding it here for the benefit of those of you who didn't get it. --- Included message from Julie Cook --- Moroso Raceway - West Palm Beach, FL January 12, 1997 I have learned from several sources that Sven Pruitt attended the National race at Mororso in West Palm Beach, Fl. He participated in a teardown of the top four finishers in the race. Jim Elder was disqualified from his second place finish for having a 'balanced crankshaft'. Apparently the top four finishers were required to pull a cylinder and Sven inspected the lower end using a magnifying glass. Any crankshaft with tooling marks or added metal were deemed illegal. Jim Elder told me that he had sent his engine to 2-Stroke International (2SI - formerly AMW) to be rebuilt because of a bad crankshaft. This is the same engine that has been found illegal. After the 1996 Run-Offs, 2SI sent a request to the SCCA Comp Board asking for approval of a number of items, including permission for competitors to be allowed to have the crankshaft balanced either by 2SI or an outside shop. This request was denied by the SCCA Comp Board I will contact Sven and 2SI in the next day or two for comments and post them here. --- End of included message --- This raises a lot of questions in my mind. If we're supposed to run the 2SI engine "as delivered" from the factory, and the factory balances the crankshaft, why is it illegal? Are my engines legal? Are *any* 2SI engines legal? Is SCCA out to make trouble for 2SI and screwing the F500 drivers in the process. -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 440 http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From edc at remedy.com Mon Jan 13 15:55:14 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 teardown and DQ at Moroso Message-ID: <199701132251.OAA21464@lists1.best.com> I think most of you have already seen this, but for those who havent.... Julie Cook sent this out eariler today. I'm forwarding it here for the benefit of those of you who didn't get it. --- Included message from Julie Cook --- Moroso Raceway - West Palm Beach, FL January 12, 1997 I have learned from several sources that Sven Pruitt attended the National race at Mororso in West Palm Beach, Fl. He participated in a teardown of the top four finishers in the race. Jim Elder was disqualified from his second place finish for having a 'balanced crankshaft'. Apparently the top four finishers were required to pull a cylinder and Sven inspected the lower end using a magnifying glass. Any crankshaft with tooling marks or added metal were deemed illegal. Jim Elder told me that he had sent his engine to 2-Stroke International (2SI - formerly AMW) to be rebuilt because of a bad crankshaft. This is the same engine that has been found illegal. After the 1996 Run-Offs, 2SI sent a request to the SCCA Comp Board asking for approval of a number of items, including permission for competitors to be allowed to have the crankshaft balanced either by 2SI or an outside shop. This request was denied by the SCCA Comp Board I will contact Sven and 2SI in the next day or two for comments and post them here. --- End of included message --- This raises a lot of questions in my mind. If we're supposed to run the 2SI engine "as delivered" from the factory, and the factory balances the crankshaft, why is it illegal? Are my engines legal? Are *any* 2SI engines legal? Is SCCA out to make trouble for 2SI and screwing the F500 drivers in the process. -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 440 http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From Ademir at webtv.net Mon Jan 13 17:21:05 1997 From: Ademir at webtv.net (Ademir Fedumenti) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 teardown and DQ at Moroso Message-ID: <199701140021.QAA10465@lists1.best.com> It is my firm beleive that the scca is out to get AMW and we, the drivers are going to pay the price . If you run an AMW you must run another year with built in vibracions or go spend $3000,00 plus to upgrade to a Rotax . The rotax people seem to know how to get on scca's good side. From edc at remedy.com Tue Jan 14 08:31:09 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 teardown and DQ at Moroso Message-ID: <199701141527.HAA02714@lists1.best.com> Ademir Fedumenti writes: > > It is my firm beleive that the scca is out to get AMW and we, the > drivers are going to pay the price . If you run an AMW you must run > another year with built in vibracions or go spend $3000,00 plus to > upgrade to a Rotax . The rotax people seem to know how to get on scca's > good side. You know Ademir, I'm inclined to agree with you. Except that I don't think it's SCCA, but one or two individuals that have it out for AMW. I really wish they would quit yanking AMW's chain. It's us F500 competitors that are getting the short end, not AMW. I'm afraid that if this sort of harassment keeps up, AMW may just decide that it's not worth the trouble to continue to support SCCA racing. It would be a shame to loose tham as a supplier. -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 440 http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From Ademir at webtv.net Tue Jan 14 16:49:27 1997 From: Ademir at webtv.net (Ademir Fedumenti) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 teardown and DQ at Moroso Message-ID: <199701142349.PAA19557@lists1.best.com> Hi. This morning I spoke with Howell at amw who told me that the scca had the sample of the machine work needed for approval of the balanced cranks. I then called scca and spoke at lenght with Jim L. at the tech line, after listening to me vent my frustations he told me that the crank sent to scca was from another amw engine and was only a sample of the machining to be done. He then told me that if amw sent them the proper part ( a machined and balanced crank from a f500 engine) he is sure that the comp board would accept their recomendation for approval by the FEBRUARY comp board meeting. We , amw owners, MUST work together to defend our vested interests with the scca, if only 2 or 3 people do all the lobying with scca we might be percieved as trouble makers and could suffer the consequences. Let's get more people involved, let's stop complaining among ourselves and get on the phone and WRITE to the scca. Thank you all for your attention (as you can see I am still venting) Good racing From pcronan at islc.net Tue Jan 14 19:32:47 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Winter National at Moroso Message-ID: <199701150224.SAA28414@lists1.best.com> The following message was sent out to Jim Elder today to use in his appeal. January 14, 1996 To Whom it may concern; This is in reference to service work performed for Jim Elder on his AMW 500R2C Formula 500 engine. This past December, Mr. Elder shipped only the crankshaft assembly to our service department for a routine maintenance overhaul. Overhaul included replacement of connecting rods, rod bearings and crank pins. All components replaced were manufacturer original equipment parts, in full compliance with SCCA specifications. This process also involved disassembly and reassembly of the press-fit components, and the straightening of the crankshaft. Through information circulated by our company to F-500 engine owners, Mr. Elder was aware that we were working on improving engine reliability through more precision in balancing crankshafts. He was also aware that, as early as October, 1996, we had submitted a formal proposal to the SCCA competition Board requesting approval of the crankshaft balancing process. Details on this process have been provided to the SCCA Technical Staff, and to members of the Competition Board. Based on the fact that the crankshaft overhaul was a major operation, and a considerable expense in preparing his engine for the 1997 season, Mr. Elder made the decision to have the crankshaft balanced while it was apart for the other work. It was our hope, and probably that of Mr. Elder and other F-500 participants, that crankshaft balancing would be approved by the start of the 1997 racing season. However, due to logistics of communication, and conveyance of sample parts, the resolution of this issue has been delayed. At the Winter Nationals at Moroso, on January 12, 1997, Mr. Elder was disqualified and stripped of his second-place finish. This action was based on technical Inspection revealing "modification" to the crankshaft. Although it is clearly evident by visual inspection that a crankshaft has been rebalanced, engine testing by our facility, and by other independent sources, has shown that no significant performance or power advantage results. The one and only intended outcome of the crankshaft balancing process is reduced engine vibration, which results in greater engine reliability and longer useful life for the bearings, ignition modules and other engine components. Sincerely, Andy Allen, Engineering From jcook03 at emory.edu Tue Jan 14 19:22:23 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: [Fwd: Winter National at Moroso] Message-ID: <199701150233.SAA04601@lists1.best.com> The attached is the message I received from Pat Cronan from 2SI regarding Jim Elder's disqualification. I will post this letter, in full, on my web page, but thought everyone might like to read it in advance. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: pcronan@islc.net (Pat Cronan) Subject: Winter National at Moroso Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 02:18:28 GMT Size: 3580 Url: http://f500.org/pipermail/f500/attachments/19970114/d88a72f2/attachment.mht From edc at oznog.com Tue Jan 14 22:09:56 1997 From: edc at oznog.com (Eric D. Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: WOW!!!! Message-ID: <199701150509.VAA06028@lists1.best.com> Folks, Thanks to all of you for subscribing to the F500 list! We already have almost 20 subscribers in just over 24 hours since I announced the list. I think we already have a forum that will be a powerful resource for all of us. We have several National and Regional drivers, a couple F500 mechanics, car builders KBS Engineering and QRE Racing, and engine builder 2 Stroke International (AMW) on the list. Great!!!!! I'm excited about the possibilities! FYI - I've removed the restriction that requires you to be subscribed to the list to post to it. There seems to be some problem with the list server software and this wasn't working correctly. I'll investigate and see if I can get it fixed. Also, the web archive of the list at www.oznog.com is a little clunky, I know. I'm working on it. It will get better. In the mean time, please be patient with the somewhat awkward organization of message in the index. I'm hopefully off to Phoenix for the Double National tomorrow if the weather cooperates. I may actually have trouble getting there due to SNOW! See, even us Californians sometime have to deal with bad weather. :-) Cheers- ------------------ Eric D. Christensen Oznog Motorsports - Formula 500 Email: edc@oznog.com WWW: http://www.oznog.com From edc at remedy.com Wed Jan 15 15:46:07 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Brake pads Message-ID: <199701152243.OAA05117@lists1.best.com> Last night I was packing parts in the trailer for Phoenix (which it turns out I'm not going to go to after all.... long story), and I noticed that my supply of brake pads is getting awfully low. Time to stock up again. The question I've got is this.... I've been running the Hawk pads for the past 3 years. I've been fairly happy with them, aside from the wear rate being a little higher than normal. But I've been hearing very good things about the wilwood Polymatix pads as well. Anyone run them? Comments? Any other pads that you've run that you like or dislike? Thanks! -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 440 http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From jcook03 at emory.edu Wed Jan 15 21:58:04 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: KBS MKVII for Sale Message-ID: <199701160508.VAA19118@lists1.best.com> I'll be posting these cars to my Web Page (actually one is already posted) however, I thought I'd go ahead and get the information out now. It's late and I'm working on a web page project for work so I won't have time to update my own page. One of the cars has been on my web page, the difference is that we are now willing to sell these cars as rollers. I don't know how many of you are running into trouble selling cars with AMW but we haven't been able to. Actually, most people seem to be waiting to see what's going to happen. I even got into a nasty e-mail throwing contest with someone who wanted to tell me that I was supporting AMW just because we wanted to unload all our AMW stock (anyone who knows us knows this is a joke). Anyhow, we'd like to sell these two MK VII this year if possible, so we're willing to sell them without the AMW and we'll just have the engines in stock. Anyone interested in buying a used AMW may want to get in touch with us, afterall, we don't really need three spare engines per car :). We have one KBS MKVII for sale now (the car Rusty drove during the first of 1996). This car has somewhere around 35 races on it. Rusty won 6 races, finished 2nd in 3 (out of 10 starts); took 6 poles and set 5 track records in 1996 with this car. We're asking $10,500 for the car complete and $8,500 as a roller. The second car will be available sometime in the late winter/early spring. We have a MK VIII on order and as soon as it comes in the VII will be available. This car will be the best value of the year, I assure you! This is the car Jack Walbran is currently using as a back-up car and it spends it's life riding around in the trailer. It has less than 30 races on it. The car is in immaculate condition. We're asking $11,500 for this car complete and $9,500 as a roller. I'll put pictures on my web page in the next day or two, but if you know of anyone interested they can send us e-mail or call us at (404) 636-7937. Thanks! -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From jcook03 at emory.edu Wed Jan 15 21:58:04 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: KBS MKVII for Sale Message-ID: <199701160508.VAA19118@lists1.best.com> I'll be posting these cars to my Web Page (actually one is already posted) however, I thought I'd go ahead and get the information out now. It's late and I'm working on a web page project for work so I won't have time to update my own page. One of the cars has been on my web page, the difference is that we are now willing to sell these cars as rollers. I don't know how many of you are running into trouble selling cars with AMW but we haven't been able to. Actually, most people seem to be waiting to see what's going to happen. I even got into a nasty e-mail throwing contest with someone who wanted to tell me that I was supporting AMW just because we wanted to unload all our AMW stock (anyone who knows us knows this is a joke). Anyhow, we'd like to sell these two MK VII this year if possible, so we're willing to sell them without the AMW and we'll just have the engines in stock. Anyone interested in buying a used AMW may want to get in touch with us, afterall, we don't really need three spare engines per car :). We have one KBS MKVII for sale now (the car Rusty drove during the first of 1996). This car has somewhere around 35 races on it. Rusty won 6 races, finished 2nd in 3 (out of 10 starts); took 6 poles and set 5 track records in 1996 with this car. We're asking $10,500 for the car complete and $8,500 as a roller. The second car will be available sometime in the late winter/early spring. We have a MK VIII on order and as soon as it comes in the VII will be available. This car will be the best value of the year, I assure you! This is the car Jack Walbran is currently using as a back-up car and it spends it's life riding around in the trailer. It has less than 30 races on it. The car is in immaculate condition. We're asking $11,500 for this car complete and $9,500 as a roller. I'll put pictures on my web page in the next day or two, but if you know of anyone interested they can send us e-mail or call us at (404) 636-7937. Thanks! -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From 70743.1062 at CompuServe.COM Thu Jan 16 09:27:01 1997 From: 70743.1062 at CompuServe.COM (David Gill) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Not Going to Phoenix? Message-ID: <199701161628.IAA10454@lists1.best.com> Eric, Sorry you cannot attend. I hate to pack and then have a "long story" to keep me from attending a race. I was looking forward to meeting you face to face (and wheel-to-wheel!). Electonic communication is a life saver but it helps greatly to face the people with which the communications is exchanged. I flew from Fort Worth to Tucson on Monday, 13 Jan. (bidness). My car left Fort Worth for Lubbock, Tx., the following Tuesday behind Jason's (Fox) pickup. Forrest (Sanco) left for Lubbock Wednesday evening to catch up with Jason in Lubbock. The two of them and hopefully 1 or 2 more people (crew hopefully) will leave Lubbock for Tucson Thursday to catch up with me. We are all to leave Tucson early Friday morning for PIR. Forrest will be pulling two trailers behind his extra cab one ton. The things we do! It should be an interesting weekend. I must return to Tucson after the event to continue my work as my car returns to Texas. If anyone else is attending the race, we will see you there. Jason is driving a NovaKar J-6, Forrest has a new J-7, and I have a KBS MkV. dg From dillon.pyron at amd.com Thu Jan 16 09:50:25 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Looking for good starter car Message-ID: <199701161651.IAA26524@lists1.best.com> I'm looking for a good starter car. Some for school, auto-x and enough racing to get me experience, not wins (but I'll take those :-). I've seen several cars listed in Sports Car in the $4K range, which is a nice number at this time. Any comments on the cars in general (Red Devil, Dolphin, Z-19) or specific offerings? And where are people storing their cars? A two car garage with two cars in it already won't work, and deed restrictions keep me from building a shed. Thanks -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 The next time an extradimensional being asks you if you are a god, say yes. From jcook03 at emory.edu Thu Jan 16 11:55:49 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 teardowns - Sven's comments Message-ID: <199701161846.KAA01647@lists1.best.com> I've just spoken with Sven Pruitt regarding the teardown at Moroso. He told me that because of complaints from competitors that 'not all cars are created equally' and the reluctance of the competitor to protest that he and Jim will be attending National races throughout the year and will be performing teardowns. As a matter of fact, Jim will be at Phoenix this week-end. He said that by no means will the teardowns be limited to AMW powered cars. He suggests that if we think we'll finish in the top four at any given race we come prepared to teardown regardless of engine type. He agrees that the 'balancing of crankshafts' issue has not been put to bed yet, that if the Comp Board receives from AMW a balanced crankshaft and blueprints (which apparently the blueprints have been received), that the Comp Board will be willing to consider legalizing the balanced crankshaft, however, until that time, balanced crankshafts are not legal and you shouldn't expect to pass teardown if you have one. Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html From pcronan at islc.net Thu Jan 16 20:46:01 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 teardowns - Sven's comments In-Reply-To: <199701161846.KAA01647@lists1.best.com> References: <199701161846.KAA01647@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199701170338.TAA03719@lists1.best.com> On Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:55:49 -0500, you wrote: >I've just spoken with Sven Pruitt regarding the teardown at Moroso. He >told me that because of complaints from competitors that 'not all cars >are created equally' and the reluctance of the competitor to protest >that he and Jim will be attending National races throughout the year and >will be performing teardowns. As a matter of fact, Jim will be at >Phoenix this week-end. He said that by no means will the teardowns be >limited to AMW powered cars. He suggests that if we think we'll finish >in the top four at any given race we come prepared to teardown >regardless of engine type. > >He agrees that the 'balancing of crankshafts' issue has not been put to >bed yet, that if the Comp Board receives from AMW a balanced crankshaft >and blueprints (which apparently the blueprints have been received), >that the Comp Board will be willing to consider legalizing the balanced >crankshaft, however, until that time, balanced crankshafts are not legal >and you shouldn't expect to pass teardown if you have one. > >Julie Cook >Fine Line Racing >http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html > In case anyone missed my other message the crankshaft will be going out UPS next day air on Friday 17Jan97. It should arrive to the SCCA on Monday 20Jan97. I will confirm delivery on Monday with UPS and post a message here letting you know that it got there. Some of you might want to let your Comp Board member know this. Hopefully this will stop the Tech people from delaying getting this information to the Board and allow AMW to address other matter we want to bring to the Comp Board's attention. Pat AMW Cuyuna Engine Company dba 2 Stroke International From nick-okc at ix.netcom.com Sat Jan 18 19:03:05 1997 From: nick-okc at ix.netcom.com (Nick Massey) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Teardowns Message-ID: <199701190204.SAA15935@lists1.best.com> Over the last week, I've read with great interest (and trepidation) about the teardowns in F500 at a National race recently. I own a KBS Mk-7 with an AMW engine and am fairly new to F500 racing. I started racing F440 last year and only ran Regional races. I did pretty well for my first season and was recently voted Rookie Driver of 1996 in the Oklahoma Region. But obviously I've still got a lot to learn. Now that I have my National license I hope to run as many National races as I can in 1997. Since I've never experienced it before, the idea of being forced to teardown my engine after a race (if I'm fortunate enough, or unfortunate enough, to be in the top 4 in this case) is kind of scary to me. There's nothing illegal about my engine and I don't know enough about it yet to cheat even if I wanted to. But having to teardown the engine at the track sounds like an experience I could live without. Please forgive the following dumb questions, but this is the first time I ever heard of this and I would appreciate your thoughts and/or suggestions as to how I should be prepared for this. 1. I thought this only happened when there was a protest of some kind, and the protesting individual had to post a bond. Can they just decide anytime that they want to teardown the top 3 or 4 in the race? 2. Who makes this decision and what's the criteria for it? Who pays for this? (I suspect the answer is "me.") 3. Who does the teardown - people in tech or the driver? And where do they do it? 4. What happens afterwards when everything is deemed okay? Do they just leave you with your engine in pieces and say, "See ya, and have a nice day!"? This sounds like it could get expensive. If nothing else it sure sounds like an incredible hassle and a lot of work for nothing. I guess for some people, putting your engine back together is no big deal, but to the average guy like me it's a big project. Thanks in advance for your comments. Nick Massey F500, #88 Oklahoma City From 70743.1062 at compuserve.com Sat Jan 18 23:22:35 1997 From: 70743.1062 at compuserve.com (dg) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Starter Car Message-ID: <199701190725.XAA22963@lists1.best.com> To Dillon, I just sold my Zink Z-22. From a purely statistical standpoint, I had what is probably as good or better car as the one Jack Bennet used to win the Runoffs(tm). It needed a rear susp. update but it had incredible straightaway speed. Get a car with a contemporary rear end like a NovaKar J-6, KBS, 90 or later Red Devil, Phantom, or Dolphin. I would believe that most others would be priced well beyond $6K. Start with a Kawasaki. These engines are cheap and, thanks to the new engine alternatives (2SI (formerly AMW) and Rotax), once again plentiful. Carry a spare cylinder and piston set, watch EGT, and keep the clutches healthy. Have a ball dg From jcook03 at emory.edu Sun Jan 19 22:18:59 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Teardowns References: <199701190203.SAA14416@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <199701200532.VAA02101@lists1.best.com> Nick Massey wrote: > > 4. What happens afterwards when everything is deemed okay? Do they > just leave you with your engine in pieces and say, "See ya, and have a > nice day!"? This sounds like it could get expensive. If nothing else > it sure sounds like an incredible hassle and a lot of work for nothing. > I guess for some people, putting your engine back together is no big > deal, but to the average guy like me it's a big project. Nick, This isn't as big a hassle as it would be if you were driving anything other than an F500. The indication I got from talking with Sven is that they are only interested in crankshafts at the moment and at Moroso only required one cylinder to be pulled. You should have on hand: Exhaust gaskets, water outlet gaskets, base gasket and 0-Ring for the head (keep your receipt for everything). 2SI puts out a manual with each engine they ship and the original idea was that the manual would always go with the engine if the car sold (in case you bought a used car). If you didn't get a manual with your engine you should contact 2SI for a copy. It includes torque specs and instructions for assemblying the engine. At most races there should be someone experienced with AMW who can help you, although I'm assuming Hallet is your home track, and I believe you'll be the only one at Hallet running an AMW unless someone from out of division shows up. If you're getting your points in Mid-Div and attend Memphis in March, feel free to paddock near us and we'll be happy to help you if the need arises. If you want to get some advice before then Rusty will be more than happy to talk with you and give you advice, give us a call at (404)636-7937. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html From edc at remedy.com Mon Jan 20 11:09:21 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Teardowns Message-ID: <199701201842.KAA08355@lists1.best.com> > From: Nick Massey > Subject: Teardowns > > Since I've never experienced it before, the idea of being forced to > teardown my engine after a race (if I'm fortunate enough, or > unfortunate enough, to be in the top 4 in this case) is kind of scary > to me. Nick, Teardowns are relatively uncommon. In 6 seasons of F500 racing I've only had to tear down twice. Don't worry too much about it. If you do have to tear down, it's generally a minor deal. They don't make you disasseble your entire engine and spread the parts out all over the floor for inspection. Usually they will have you remove one or two components for inspection. Most likely the intake manifold or cylinders for an F500. Both are very easy to remove and replace, and are actually things that you'll do as a matter of course for maintenance anyway. So, it's not as scarey as you may think.... unless your engine is illegal. :-) -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 440 http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From pcronan at islc.net Mon Jan 20 19:01:42 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Crankshaft In-Reply-To: <199701161846.KAA01647@lists1.best.com> References: <199701161846.KAA01647@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199701210153.RAA15921@lists1.best.com> Just wanted to let you all know the F-500 crankshaft arrived at the SCCA headquarters today. If the Tech Section says it can't get it to the comp board by the time of the next meeting then something is wrong. If you know the address of your Comp Board member you may want to let them know that the crankshaft got there. I would hate for them to be told that we didn't sent it. I got the name of the person who signed for it from UPS so hopefully there won't be any confusion. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From edc at remedy.com Tue Jan 21 08:58:26 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Fw: F440 Tires Message-ID: <199701211555.HAA27451@lists1.best.com> >From: Victor Seaber Subject: F440 Tires Date: Monday, January 20, 1997 5:42 PM We are getting ready to go to Road Atlanta on Feb. 22, and I have some questions/comments concerning tires. For the record, the car is an '84 Zink rebuilt to 93+ spec. The 10" tires we will be using are the Goodyear (2099 I think) R095 compound tires. I have some experience with these tires in Autocross, and have found them to 'fall off' quite quickly at about 1/2 tire wear. This year in SCCA, we are planning to use the same tires- and I would like to know other peoples experience with them. We also have a set of 160 compound Goodyears- does anybody use these? They were intended to last for most of a short season in a slow car- now we have a fast one (regionally) and are planning a full season. What type of tire wear is typical? Does anyone take tire temp info? Also, how good are the Hoosiers? Final question is- are diffusers AFTER the rear axle legal? I saw a few cars last year with them, and by my interpretation of the rules, they are. Thanks, Victor Seaber, rookie From brianlm at erols.com Tue Jan 21 14:02:48 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: tires Message-ID: <199701212106.NAA14290@lists1.best.com> I've found, and heard from others, that the Hoosiers come on much quicker than the Goodyears. They also seem to hold on longer before they fall off. One more advantage is a more pliable sidewall to make up for our suspension. Tire temps are very important to a good setup, consistancy is key with these. From dillon.pyron at amd.com Tue Jan 21 14:21:49 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: tires In-Reply-To: Brian Marren "tires" (Jan 21, 4:02pm) References: <199701212106.NAA14290@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199701212122.NAA25843@lists1.best.com> On Jan 21, 4:02pm, Brian Marren wrote: > Subject: tires > I've found, and heard from others, that the Hoosiers come on much > quicker than the Goodyears. They also seem to hold on longer before they > fall off. One more advantage is a more pliable sidewall to make up for > our suspension. Tire temps are very important to a good setup, > consistancy is key with these. >-- End of excerpt from Brian Marren The rap on Hoosiers in NASCAR was that they held on longer, but gave up quicker. ie, a Goodyear would give you two to three laps warning, some Hoosier compound were telling their drivers to come in mid-way through turn 4 :-) I guess a trip to your friendly skidpad will answer that question (and others). -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 My mind has a mind of its own. From KBSENGR at aol.com Tue Jan 21 17:11:44 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Fwd: Phoenix Double National Message-ID: <199701220013.QAA17853@lists1.best.com> --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Phoenix Double National Date: 97-01-21 11:42:17 EST From: KBSENGR To: oznog@oznog.com,edc@remedy.com CC: Cronan@hargray.com CC: jcook03@emory.edu Thought you might be interested Sunday 1/12/97 Pos. Driver Car Engine #Laps Fast Time 1 Kurt Jechel KBS MK-8 Rotax 30 1:05.067 2 Sharon Lopardo KBS MK-7 Rotax 30 1:05.987 3 Chico Breschini Phantom Rotax 29 1:09.621 4 Jason Fox Novacar J-6 Kawasaki 28 1:11.349 5 Don Clar Novacar J-7 Rotax 26nr 1:07.542 6 Al Loehner KBS MK-7 Rotax 17nr 1:05.575 7 Forrest Sanco Novacar J-7 AMW 16nr 1:06.920 Kurt was on the pole, Al 2nd, Sharon 3rd, Forrest 4th. On lap 1 Kurt spun in turn 7 and was 7th. Al was 1st and Sharon 2nd after 1 lap. Kurt then started back to the front. On lap 17 Kurt caught Al at start finish just as Al was littering the track with clutch belt particals. Don blew a clutch belt, Forrest spun destroyed his engine tray got rocks in the clutch and blew the belt. Monday 1/20/97 Pos. Driver Car Engine Laps Fast lap 1 Kurt Jechel KBS MK-8 Rotax 30 1:04.838 2 Al Loehner KBS MK-7 Rotax 30 1:04.760 3 Sharon Lopardo KBS MK-7 Rotax 30 1:05.269 4 Forrest Sanco Novacar J7 AMW 29 1:05.908 5 Don Clar Novacar J7 Rotax 29 1:07.212 6 Chico Breschini Phantom Rotax 28 1:09.027 7 Jason Fox Novacar J6 Kawasaki 13nr 1:11.921 8 David Gill KBS MK-5 Kawasaki ? 1:15.904 Al got the jump on the start and led the first 9 laps Kurt passed Al on lap 10. David Gill had engine problems all weekend and dropped out about lap 12. I'm not sure what happened to Jason Fox I do know that he got hit by a V. Kurt and Forrest both got hit by the same v on the same lap. Al got hit by a V. Al set a new lap record the old record was 1:07 something. And that is the weekend in a nutshell. Mike From jcook03 at emory.edu Tue Jan 21 19:51:42 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Phoenix Double National Message-ID: <199701220303.TAA26162@lists1.best.com> I asked Mike Kerns about a post-race teardown. He told me that Jim L. did do a post-race inspection of the top two cars on Sunday and looked at carb bores, but only weighed the cars on Monday. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From jcook03 at emory.edu Tue Jan 21 19:51:42 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Phoenix Double National Message-ID: <199701220303.TAA26162@lists1.best.com> I asked Mike Kerns about a post-race teardown. He told me that Jim L. did do a post-race inspection of the top two cars on Sunday and looked at carb bores, but only weighed the cars on Monday. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From pcronan at islc.net Tue Jan 21 20:47:53 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Phoenix Double National In-Reply-To: <199701220303.TAA26162@lists1.best.com> References: <199701220303.TAA26162@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199701220339.TAA03413@lists1.best.com> On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:51:42 -0500, you wrote: Sounds like a fair evaluation to me. At a race where most of the cars were AMW's they tear down 4 cars and in a race where most of the car's were Rotax they only check two cars. Was Jim L. wearing his Rotax hat during the inspection? (sarcastic mode off) Does anyone know if any other class besides F500 was inspected? Pat Cronan >I asked Mike Kerns about a post-race teardown. He told me that Jim L. >did do a post-race inspection of the top two cars on Sunday and looked >at carb bores, but only weighed the cars on Monday. >-- >Julie Cook >Fine Line Racing >http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html > > >"There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing >and motor racing. The rest are merely games." > -Ernest Hemingway > -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From dillon.pyron at amd.com Wed Jan 22 08:05:54 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Fwd: Phoenix Double National In-Reply-To: KBSENGR@aol.com "Fwd: Phoenix Double National" (Jan 21, 7:11pm) References: <199701220013.QAA17853@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199701221506.HAA25843@lists1.best.com> On Jan 21, 7:11pm, KBSENGR@aol.com wrote: > > Thought you might be interested Yes, thanks very much. > > Sunday 1/12/97 > > Kurt was on the pole, Al 2nd, Sharon 3rd, Forrest 4th. On lap 1 Kurt spun > in turn 7 and was 7th. Al was 1st and Sharon 2nd after 1 lap. Kurt then > started back to the front. On lap 17 Kurt caught Al at start finish just as > Al was littering the track with clutch belt particals. Don blew a clutch > belt, Forrest spun destroyed his engine tray got rocks in the clutch and blew > the belt. Good, I thought you were going to say that Forrest did some damage :-) Glad nobody was physically hurt. > > Monday 1/20/97 > > Al got the jump on the start and led the first 9 laps Kurt passed Al on lap > 10. David Gill had engine problems all weekend and dropped out about lap > 12. I'm not sure what happened to Jason Fox I do know that he got hit by a > V. Kurt and Forrest both got hit by the same v on the same lap. Al got hit > by a V. Al set a new lap record the old record was 1:07 something. And that > is the weekend in a nutshell. Four "hit by a V" out of 8 cars!?!? Wow, any action by the stewards? Sounds like at least one car needs a little time out. -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 My mind has a mind of its own. From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Jan 22 09:05:09 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Phoenix Message-ID: <199701221606.IAA00555@lists1.best.com> Guess some of you didn't understand my sarcasm. The only teardown was to check the carb bores on 2 engines. PERIOD!!!! Mike From 70743.1062 at compuserve.com Wed Jan 22 09:01:51 1997 From: 70743.1062 at compuserve.com (David Gill) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Phoenix Woes Message-ID: <199701221604.IAA28236@lists1.best.com> I should probably count my blessings: 1. First trip to Phoenix 2. First outing for the car since acquisition, 14 Dec. 96 3 First outing for me in a KBS. 4. Completely rebuilt, suspension (23 of 35 rod ends), steering, engine top (Kaw), and carbs 5. Instrumentation not properly calibrated 6. Runoffs tires (from previous owner) I had worked until 3:00a, Monday 13 Jan., getting the car ready. I only got close. I had to fly to Tucson the morning of 13 Jan. Total sleep 4 hours (half on the airplane). My car caught up with me when Forrest Sanco and Jason Fox drove from Fort Worth on Thursday night. I had to use all of the Friday test day to finish the car. I did three laps of Saturday practice before the motor quit. I spent all day and evening thrashing for a cure. I finally (as opposed to initially) checked compression. 125 and 75!! I took down the "weak" side and found the effects of a c-clip being eaten by the engine. Scored cylinder and piston. I shopped all Sunday for rings (yeah, right!) but to no avail. I reassembled with one ring and this side was the best (125 and 155). I thought I had corrected a coolant leak. I was wrong and 5., above, bit me hard. Later, in the race, I would run all of the water out and seize it up. I spent all of Saturday shopping and assembling. I spent Sunday in qualifying with a brand new car/driver/track combination. It was a wonder that I did not autograph the wall. Fun track, though! I thought I was ready for the race. I was 19 laps off. I completed 11 laps before the engine let go. I will accept exactly zero criticism from any V driver (or any driver in the group actually) for holding up their race. I drove off the line so much (How much?) that I practically restored the rubber content on my tires. This also developed a "push" that would eventually see me playing in the rocks around turn 2, two times. NOT FUN but is demonstrates just what a goooood guy I am. The driving line was extremely narrow. Until I suffered rubber buildup, my KBS MkV handled extremely well. I replaced 23 of 35 rod ends (including those at the bottom of the front uprights. I squared the car, set camber and toe extremely conservative, and left caster alone. The oval was fun. I only needed more power (or less weight; I weighed in at 782, of which I will "personally claim 15"). The event was not a complete disaster. Just the on track portion of it. Off track was altogether more successful. I met what is probably the friendliest, most accomodating, skilled, and efficient collection of worker expertise and nice people I have encountered in some time. My visor's up to the Arizona Region and the folks that helped them. The RE hugged me (a lady), the scrutineer came to my pit and asked me if I wanted an annual tech inspection (which I answered in the affirmative), and another worker helped us find a hotel room. Lovely people. One Maalox moment for me. While in my only qualifying session, I approached the carousel only to find a V parked broadside right on the driving line. I saw the waving yellow prior to entering. Up when the arm and down went the brake peddle (sp). Right when I entered the carousel, another V passed me. I thought to myself, "you poor dipsh_t; you'd better have an attorney with you." The session ended and I went to Tech to get weighed, according to procedure. As I left the scales, an official said that the steward wanted a word with me. I was both puzzled and puckered. The individual introduced himself as Larry Stevens, Executive Steward for SoPac. Mr. Stevens asked me if I was passed under a waving yellow. I answered yes. He asked me who it was. I was out of division, approaching a car with a waving yellow, and on a new track. All I could honestly tell him was that the car was a FV. As a team, the Sanco Specialties trio (Forrest Sanco, NovaKar J-7/AMW/Hoosier, Jason Fox, NovaKar J-6/Kawasaki/Hoosier, and David Gill, KBS MkV/Kawasaki/Hoosier), faired OK. Forrest got a 6th on Sunday and a 4th on Monday while Jason got just the opposite. That's right, Jason and Forrest are tied for the points lead in the Southwest Division!! It was good to get this out. The stats will be out soon. There is no point in me trying to cite them from memory. This is the weekend as experienced by my sore back, neck, and head, my stained hands, and my completely stress free heart. I believe that I am the oldest F500 participant in the SWD. I want to thank Don Clar and Peter "Chico" Breschini for making me not the oldest at this event. <;) Kurt Jechel (KBS MkVIII/Rotax/Hoosier) won both days. NOTE: For purposes of elaboration and explanation, I would like to adopt a description standard that is used in describing open wheel cars (e.g.Michael Andretti, Lola/Ford/Good Year) to be used here on the forum. From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Jan 22 09:34:27 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Phoenix Double National Message-ID: <199701221635.IAA29107@lists1.best.com> A-a-a-a yes the stewards were involved. The V driver that hit Kurt and Forrest protested Kurt even though his contact with Forrest put the V into the wall. The stewards decided that the V drivers are unaware of the increased speed differential of F-5 cars powered by the newer engines and it was just a racing incident. Mike From jcook03 at emory.edu Wed Jan 22 10:05:37 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Phoenix Double National References: <199701221635.IAA29107@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199701221652.IAA19482@lists1.best.com> KBSENGR@aol.com wrote: > > A-a-a-a yes the stewards were involved. > > The V driver that hit Kurt and Forrest protested Kurt even though his contact > with Forrest put the V into the wall. The stewards decided that the V > drivers are unaware of the increased speed differential of F-5 cars powered > by the newer engines and it was just a racing incident. > > Mike OH PLEASE! Julie Cook From jcook03 at emory.edu Wed Jan 22 10:05:37 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: Phoenix Double National References: <199701221635.IAA29107@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199701221652.IAA19482@lists1.best.com> KBSENGR@aol.com wrote: > > A-a-a-a yes the stewards were involved. > > The V driver that hit Kurt and Forrest protested Kurt even though his contact > with Forrest put the V into the wall. The stewards decided that the V > drivers are unaware of the increased speed differential of F-5 cars powered > by the newer engines and it was just a racing incident. > > Mike OH PLEASE! Julie Cook From edc at remedy.com Wed Jan 22 17:55:14 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 Mailing List news - archives and digests Message-ID: <199701230051.QAA24194@lists1.best.com> The F500 list archive on www.oznog.com is still ugly, I really am working on it to try to make it a lot more usable. I'll hopefully have a better version of the code running next week. I'm going to pull the New Subscriber info messages out of the Archive and put them on a seperate page. Sort of a "who's who" on the F500 list. Those of you who get this list in digest form. Are you getting the digests ok? I goofed and unsubscribed myself from the digest list, so I haven't been getting copies to make sure they're working right. Cheers- -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From edc at remedy.com Wed Jan 22 17:55:14 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:15 2006 Subject: F500 Mailing List news - archives and digests Message-ID: <199701230051.QAA24194@lists1.best.com> The F500 list archive on www.oznog.com is still ugly, I really am working on it to try to make it a lot more usable. I'll hopefully have a better version of the code running next week. I'm going to pull the New Subscriber info messages out of the Archive and put them on a seperate page. Sort of a "who's who" on the F500 list. Those of you who get this list in digest form. Are you getting the digests ok? I goofed and unsubscribed myself from the digest list, so I haven't been getting copies to make sure they're working right. Cheers- -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From nick-okc at ix.netcom.com Thu Jan 23 11:40:26 1997 From: nick-okc at ix.netcom.com (Nick Massey) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Phoenix Woes Message-ID: <199701231841.KAA28796@lists1.best.com> Sounds like you had quite a weekend David. As the old saying goes, "Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?" I'm sure you'll get your car sorted out soon and the next race will be a lot more fun. Hope to see you at TWS or Hallett sometime this year. Nick Massey F550, #88 Oklahoma City KBS MK-7/AMW/Hoosier You wrote: > >I should probably count my blessings: >1. First trip to Phoenix >2. First outing for the car since acquisition, 14 Dec. 96 >3 First outing for me in a KBS. >4. Completely rebuilt, suspension (23 of 35 rod ends), steering, engine top >(Kaw), and carbs >5. Instrumentation not properly calibrated >6. Runoffs tires (from previous owner) > >I had worked until 3:00a, Monday 13 Jan., getting the car ready. I only got >close. I had to fly to Tucson the morning of 13 Jan. Total sleep 4 hours (half >on the airplane). My car caught up with me when Forrest Sanco and Jason Fox >drove from Fort Worth on Thursday night. I had to use all of the Friday test >day to finish the car. I did three laps of Saturday practice before the motor >quit. I spent all day and evening thrashing for a cure. I finally (as opposed >to initially) checked compression. 125 and 75!! I took down the "weak" side >and found the effects of a c-clip being eaten by the engine. Scored cylinder >and piston. I shopped all Sunday for rings (yeah, right!) but to no avail. I >reassembled with one ring and this side was the best (125 and 155). I thought I >had corrected a coolant leak. I was wrong and 5., above, bit me hard. Later, >in the race, I would run all of the water out and seize it up. I spent all of >Saturday shopping and assembling. I spent Sunday in qualifying with a brand new >car/driver/track combination. It was a wonder that I did not autograph the >wall. Fun track, though! > From jcook03 at emory.edu Sat Jan 25 20:36:13 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Suburban FS Message-ID: <199701260349.TAA12631@lists1.best.com> We have a 1984 C20 Silverado Suburban that we are selling. This is a 3/4 Ton truck with 350 cc engine and automatic transmission (less than 5,000 miles on rebuilt transmission) with 159,000 miles. The 'Burb is red with a cream colored rock panel, red cloth interior. It has electric windows/door locks, front and rear air conditioner and heat and rear window defrost, factory tinted windows and two bench seats. It has a factory trailer package that includes heavy duty trailer hitch, trailering mirrors, electric trailer brakes, and 40 gal gas tank. We've added dual exhaust that exits to the sides of the 'Burb. We live in an apartment complex that has a parking deck and we haven't had to park it in the sun so the red paint hasn't faded. Location: Atlanta,GA Asking $6,000. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html From nightowl at superbike.com Thu Jan 30 11:47:17 1997 From: nightowl at superbike.com (Charles K. Dixon) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Costs? Message-ID: <199701301848.KAA05917@lists1.best.com> Since all I see is new subscribers being added to the list, and no discussions I might as well get the proverbial ball rolling! Looks like there's a few "hard core" F500 racers on the list, and a bunch like me who basically don't know much about it- obviously any kind of racing is expensive ( I come from a "motorcycle environment"), but how expensive?? Granted it's going to depend from driver to driver, but ther must be some kind of "ball park" figure for an average weekend of racing? Entry fees?, tires?, brakes?, How many hours of maintenance?, and what kind? Engine tear downs? How often?, and how major? Also any drivers around the Chicago area?? TIA!! From nightowl at superbike.com Thu Jan 30 11:47:17 1997 From: nightowl at superbike.com (Charles K. Dixon) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Costs? Message-ID: <199701301848.KAA05917@lists1.best.com> Since all I see is new subscribers being added to the list, and no discussions I might as well get the proverbial ball rolling! Looks like there's a few "hard core" F500 racers on the list, and a bunch like me who basically don't know much about it- obviously any kind of racing is expensive ( I come from a "motorcycle environment"), but how expensive?? Granted it's going to depend from driver to driver, but ther must be some kind of "ball park" figure for an average weekend of racing? Entry fees?, tires?, brakes?, How many hours of maintenance?, and what kind? Engine tear downs? How often?, and how major? Also any drivers around the Chicago area?? TIA!! From Ademir at webtv.net Thu Jan 30 18:28:43 1997 From: Ademir at webtv.net (Ademir Fedumenti) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Costs? Message-ID: <199701310129.RAA04203@lists1.best.com> if you have to ask... From jcook03 at emory.edu Thu Jan 30 20:13:50 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Costs? References: <199701310129.RAA04203@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199701310327.TAA16207@lists1.best.com> Ademir Fedumenti wrote: > > if you have to ask... Oh come on Ademir, that's a pretty lousy attitude to take to someone who is truly interested in our class! If every new racer got that kind of answer our class would die! To the person who asked: The cost of racing varies with the level of competitiveness you wish to attain. Since no one else has commented, I'll give it a go. Entry fees for Nationals are around $200.00. Personally, we run 12-15 races a year, but that's not necessary. If you want to make the Run-Offs, you have to run 4 races minimum, depending on your division you can run as few as 4 races or may have to run 12-15 (such as SE Div or CenDiv). Regional entries are probably between $100 and $150... I really don't know. Tires: A set of tires costs somewhere around $400 - 425 with mounting and balancing running $10/tire (?, we mount and balance our own). We put a new set of tires on every race weekend, again, this isn't necessary. We rotate our tires, race become qualifying, qualifying become practice. You can run 2 or three weekends on a set of tires, generally. Parts and maintenance is dependant on a lot of things, and would be difficult for anyone to give you an idea of. We generally spend around $500 - $600/race weekend including travel and lodging (not counting tires). Hope this helps, if you have any other questions feel free to e-mail me directly. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From mnoe at cisco.com Thu Jan 30 20:27:31 1997 From: mnoe at cisco.com (Mark Noe) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Costs? Message-ID: <199701310336.TAA26426@lists1.best.com> I'm in a similar position. It would be nice to get a better feel on the average costs per race. I just received mail from KBS Engineering on their new MK-8 and the options list brings up alot of other questions on the best way to purchase a F500 car......I'll start a separate thread on this one though. Hopefully the ball will start rolling on this thread soon......:) At 12:47 PM 1/30/97 -0600, Charles K. Dixon wrote: >Since all I see is new subscribers being added to the list, and no >discussions I might as well get the proverbial ball rolling! Looks like >there's a few "hard core" F500 racers on the list, and a bunch like me who >basically don't know much about it- obviously any kind of racing is >expensive ( I come from a "motorcycle environment"), but how expensive?? >Granted it's going to depend from driver to driver, but ther must be some >kind of "ball park" figure for an average weekend of racing? Entry fees?, >tires?, brakes?, How many hours of maintenance?, and what kind? Engine tear >downs? How often?, and how major? Also any drivers around the Chicago >area?? TIA!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------- L.A.- Home of Networkers North America!! - June 17-20, 1997 Mark Noe SE Team Lead, CCIE #1331 11766 Wilshire Blvd Suite 1500 Los Angeles, CA 90025 310.231.4955-phone or fax From Ademir at webtv.net Fri Jan 31 00:19:22 1997 From: Ademir at webtv.net (Ademir Fedumenti) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Costs? Message-ID: <199701310719.XAA20482@lists1.best.com> come on Julie, relax . It was just a joke, after all it is one of the most used quotes in racing just like; how to make a small fortune in racing? start with a large one. or there is a lot of money in racing, I know because I left it there, etc. I will go check some of my records and write again tomorow. By the way does anybody know when is the comp. board meeting ? From brianlm at erols.com Sun Feb 2 14:28:50 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire pressures Message-ID: <199702022131.NAA03233@lists1.best.com> I run Hoosiers, and until the Pocono national last year, I always ran 10 1/2 to 12 1/2 Lbs. That race I tried 15 to 17 lbs. to make a taller tire at speed. I didn't lose much traction at these pressures. Has anyone else played with pressures this high and had any luck? From jcook03 at emory.edu Sun Feb 2 20:27:53 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire pressures References: <199702022131.NAA03233@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702030342.TAA21692@lists1.best.com> Brian Marren wrote: > > I run Hoosiers, and until the Pocono national last year, I always ran 10 > 1/2 to 12 1/2 Lbs. That race I tried 15 to 17 lbs. to make a taller tire > at speed. I didn't lose much traction at these pressures. Has anyone > else played with pressures this high and had any luck? We used to run 16 lbs with Goodyears, but never Hoosier. We've never run as low as 10 1/2 either, tho. We generally run 12/13 (F/R) with Hoosiers with success. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From edc at remedy.com Mon Feb 3 09:27:02 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire pressures Message-ID: <199702031658.IAA18021@lists1.best.com> > I run Hoosiers, and until the Pocono national last year, I always ran 10 > 1/2 to 12 1/2 Lbs. That race I tried 15 to 17 lbs. to make a taller tire > at speed. I didn't lose much traction at these pressures. Has anyone > else played with pressures this high and had any luck? I used to run 15 pounds in the rear with Goodyear's older R95 compund to prevent cupping the inside edge. I've tried higher pressures in the Hoosiers without much luck. Up to about 16 pounds I didn't notice any lack of grip, but I'd cook the center of the tire. I don't remember what the hot pressure was, but it was scarey. It just built way too much heat, and way too much pressure. I never ran high pressures long enough to find out what happened over time, but the tire temps indicated that they's never last a race distance without going off in a big way. If you're going to experiement with tire pressures, make sure to take tire temps with a good pyrometer. You just can't tell enough about what's happening with your tires from the cockpit... until something unsavory happens. I've seen the results of sudden massive failure (POP!) and rolling a tire off the bead firsthand. Frankly, I didn't like the results of either very much. I run Hoosiers in the 12 - 13 pound range normally. Looking for hot pressures between 18 and 20. -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From brianlm at erols.com Mon Feb 3 18:10:40 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: just rambling Message-ID: <199702040113.RAA08737@lists1.best.com> Just to keep things going. I have some side to side slop in my steering rack( about 26 races & no serious hits on it)anything short of a replacement that will fix this properly. Brian KBS MkVII/hoosier/rotax From pcronan at islc.net Mon Feb 3 20:38:53 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Sven Pruett Memo Message-ID: <199702040329.TAA12725@lists1.best.com> We received the following Memorandum today from Sven Pruett of the SCCA. I will try to type it exact ly as it appears. Date: February 3,1997 From: Sven Pruett To: Reese Griffin Subj: AMW Crankshaft Balancing Approval Resse, For your information, the Competition Board has approved the factory balancing procedures outlined in the bulletin provided by your company. This approval will appear in the March issue of FasTrack as follows: F500 1. AMW Technical Bulletin #03/97.01, Published January 1997, (Detailing the following: Revised crankshaft machining procedures to correct dynamic imbalance. Revision of crankshaft minimum weight to 6.89 kg (15.19 lbs)) has been approved by the Competition Board. Please note that we have taken the liberty of assigning a bulletin number to this item. The above approval will make this procedure legal on all AMW F500 engines EFFECTIVE MARCH 1, 1997. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. If I may be of any further assistance, please feel free to contact me again. Regards, Sven Pruett My thanks to all of you who have contacted you Comp Board member and your member of the Board of Directors. Sven may be assured that we will be contacting him again. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From edc at remedy.com Tue Feb 4 09:18:33 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Sven Pruett Memo Message-ID: <199702041615.IAA05523@lists1.best.com> Hallelujah! Good news! See... it is possible to get the comp board to approve sane things. You just have to make sure the proposal is gift wrapped just right, wth the right color bow and delivered to them on a silver platter. Of course, all the input from F500 racers probably helped more than a little. Pat, any word on "Y" pipes? Is there an active effort to relax the restiction on the "Y" pipe, or is that dead for the moment? -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From edc at remedy.com Tue Feb 4 09:41:51 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Spark plug wires and EMI (long techie stuff) Message-ID: <199702041638.IAA22464@lists1.best.com> OK, I'm probably gonna get myself in trouble here.... but what the heck. It won't be the first time, and it sure won't be the last. :-) I have horrible, horrible problems with EMI (ignition noise) from the AMW engine boggling my onboard electronics. I've gone to extreme pains to shield everything for the onboard computer, dashboard, video camera, radios, etc. but I still get some interference problems. The root of the problem seems to be the plug wires on the ignition modules. They are plain old 7mm garden variety high tension wire. Plenty efficient for getting spark to the plugs, but also (unfortunately) quite adept at sending extra electrons flying every which-way, wreaking havoc with onboard electronics. Does anyone know of a source for 7mm helical wrapped noise suppression spark plug wire that I can replace the stock wire with? I can find 8mm wire no problem, but I haven't been able to locate 7mm? Any other ideas on ways to "tone down" the ignition noise? I've already switched to resistor plugs and noise suppression boots, which helps considerably. Pat, could you ask your technical folks about this one? I'm sure the EMI is an issue in aircraft, so maybe they have some techniques from the aircraft engines that could be applied to our application. I know that SCCA would probably frown on any modifications that I make here, but I really need to get clean data for test sessions, even if I can't run the modified ignition on race weekends. -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From pcronan at islc.net Tue Feb 4 21:16:17 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Sven Pruett Memo In-Reply-To: <199702041615.IAA05523@lists1.best.com> References: <199702041615.IAA05523@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702050406.UAA19326@lists1.best.com> On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:18:33 -0800, you wrote: >Hallelujah! Good news! > >See... it is possible to get the comp board to approve sane things. You >just have to make sure the proposal is gift wrapped just right, wth the >right color bow and delivered to them on a silver platter. Of course, all >the input from F500 racers probably helped more than a little. > >Pat, any word on "Y" pipes? Is there an active effort to relax the >restiction on the "Y" pipe, or is that dead for the moment? > >-------------------------------------- Eric, That is the next thing on our list. Like I said in my last message we will be talking again to Mr. Pruett real soon. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From pcronan at islc.net Tue Feb 4 21:21:18 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Spark plug wires and EMI (long techie stuff) In-Reply-To: <199702041638.IAA22464@lists1.best.com> References: <199702041638.IAA22464@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702050411.UAA22988@lists1.best.com> On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:41:51 -0800, you wrote: >OK, I'm probably gonna get myself in trouble here.... but what the heck. It >won't be the first time, and it sure won't be the last. :-) > >I have horrible, horrible problems with EMI (ignition noise) from the AMW >engine boggling my onboard electronics. I've gone to extreme pains to >shield everything for the onboard computer, dashboard, video camera, >radios, etc. but I still get some interference problems. > >The root of the problem seems to be the plug wires on the ignition modules. >They are plain old 7mm garden variety high tension wire. Plenty efficient >for getting spark to the plugs, but also (unfortunately) quite adept at >sending extra electrons flying every which-way, wreaking havoc with onboard >electronics. > >Does anyone know of a source for 7mm helical wrapped noise suppression >spark plug wire that I can replace the stock wire with? I can find 8mm wire >no problem, but I haven't been able to locate 7mm? > >Any other ideas on ways to "tone down" the ignition noise? I've already >switched to resistor plugs and noise suppression boots, which helps >considerably. > >Pat, could you ask your technical folks about this one? I'm sure the EMI is >an issue in aircraft, so maybe they have some techniques from the aircraft >engines that could be applied to our application. > >I know that SCCA would probably frown on any modifications that I make >here, but I really need to get clean data for test sessions, even if I >can't run the modified ignition on race weekends. > >-------------------------------------- Eric, I'll ask Andy and Howell about it in the Morning. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From jcook03 at emory.edu Tue Feb 4 21:10:08 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Sven Pruett Memo References: <199702041615.IAA05523@lists1.best.com> <199702050406.UAA19326@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702050424.UAA29756@lists1.best.com> Pat Cronan wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:18:33 -0800, you wrote: > > >Hallelujah! Good news! > > > >See... it is possible to get the comp board to approve sane things. You > >just have to make sure the proposal is gift wrapped just right, wth the > >right color bow and delivered to them on a silver platter. Of course, all > >the input from F500 racers probably helped more than a little. > > > >Pat, any word on "Y" pipes? Is there an active effort to relax the > >restiction on the "Y" pipe, or is that dead for the moment? > > > >-------------------------------------- > Eric, > That is the next thing on our list. Like I said in my last > message we will be talking again to Mr. Pruett real soon. > > Pat Cronan > -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this > handbasket I thought the Y pipe modification had been flat out denied in December(?) -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Feb 5 08:48:07 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: y-pipe Message-ID: <199702051549.HAA29370@lists1.best.com> Talked with Jim l. @ Phoenix. about Y-pipe. He said they might consder it if the Rotax proved to be faster. He also said other comp. adjustments might be considered. I suggested that the weight be reduced. Reason, the increased kentic energy due to the weight and increased speed creates a saftey hazard. Insurance you know. Mike From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Feb 5 08:48:07 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: y-pipe Message-ID: <199702051549.HAA29370@lists1.best.com> Talked with Jim l. @ Phoenix. about Y-pipe. He said they might consder it if the Rotax proved to be faster. He also said other comp. adjustments might be considered. I suggested that the weight be reduced. Reason, the increased kentic energy due to the weight and increased speed creates a saftey hazard. Insurance you know. Mike From pcronan at islc.net Wed Feb 5 18:19:14 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Sven Pruett Memo In-Reply-To: <32F80820.62B3@emory.edu> References: <199702041615.IAA05523@lists1.best.com> <199702050406.UAA19326@lists1.best.com> <32F80820.62B3@emory.edu> Message-ID: <199702060109.RAA22286@lists1.best.com> On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 23:10:08 -0500, you wrote: >I thought the Y pipe modification had been flat out denied in >December(?) > >-- >Julie Cook >Fine Line Racing >http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html > Ah Julie you just give up too easily. The crankshaft was also flat out denied in December. As my last employer used to say "Retreat hell! Were just attacking in a different direction". Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From pcronan at islc.net Wed Feb 5 18:19:14 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Sven Pruett Memo In-Reply-To: <32F80820.62B3@emory.edu> References: <199702041615.IAA05523@lists1.best.com> <199702050406.UAA19326@lists1.best.com> <32F80820.62B3@emory.edu> Message-ID: <199702060109.RAA22286@lists1.best.com> On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 23:10:08 -0500, you wrote: >I thought the Y pipe modification had been flat out denied in >December(?) > >-- >Julie Cook >Fine Line Racing >http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html > Ah Julie you just give up too easily. The crankshaft was also flat out denied in December. As my last employer used to say "Retreat hell! Were just attacking in a different direction". Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From pcronan at islc.net Wed Feb 5 18:48:43 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: y-pipe In-Reply-To: <199702051549.HAA29370@lists1.best.com> References: <199702051549.HAA29370@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702060139.RAA19711@lists1.best.com> On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:48:07 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >Talked with Jim l. @ Phoenix. about Y-pipe. He said they might consder it if >the Rotax proved to be faster. He also said other comp. adjustments might be >considered. I suggested that the weight be reduced. Reason, the increased >kentic energy due to the weight and increased speed creates a saftey hazard. >Insurance you know. > >Mike > Mike, We are all ready testing and working on the Y-pipe. Once it is done we plan to get it approved. We DON'T PLAN on waiting until half the season is over while Jim L tries to make up his mind on weather we need it or not. After what happened at Phoenix with that super hard inpection of the Rotax cars we aren't about to wait for him to make up his mind. With a race coming up shortly in Florida and Texas it will be interesting to see how the AMW cars will be inspected. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From brianlm at erols.com Thu Feb 6 11:04:13 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Atlanta Message-ID: <199702061807.KAA19368@lists1.best.com> I'd like to make the march 1st race in Atlanta. Anyone know a decent place to stay? From brianlm at erols.com Thu Feb 6 11:04:13 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Atlanta Message-ID: <199702061807.KAA19368@lists1.best.com> I'd like to make the march 1st race in Atlanta. Anyone know a decent place to stay? From KBSENGR at aol.com Thu Feb 6 11:20:05 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: F440 Starting the Rotax Message-ID: <199702061821.KAA28597@lists1.best.com> Tom, There are two very easy ways to electric start your Rotax engine. Both of these set-ups use the Rotax starter and ring gear. The Rotax starter is a good strong starter and comes with the starter solenoid and brackets. The ring gear is matched to the starter. We have used this starter & ring gear in both a Mk-7 and a Mk-8 and it has been used in the Mk-5. There are two engine clutches that will accept the Rotax ring gear and have the correct factory machined taper for the Rotax 494 engine. We DO NOT favor remachining the clutch bore. The Ski-Doo TRA clutch accepts the ring gear without any modifications. This clutch is different in concept from the Comet or Polaris, but it appears to be very strong and easily tuned. We have installed this clutch on two cars and have done some dyno and track tuning work. Comet offers an engine clutch with the correct factory machined taper. This clutch has ring gear bosses for a ring gear, however the Rotax ring gear needs to be machined slightly to fit these bosses. KBS Engineering offers both of these clutches either set-up or as they come from the factory. For further information and pricing give us a call at (909) 355-4800. Sandy KBS Engineering From jcook03 at emory.edu Fri Feb 7 20:07:52 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Kawi parts Message-ID: <199702080323.TAA11814@lists1.best.com> We have a collection of kawasaki parts that we would be interested in selling. We try to keep our trailer stocked with whatever parts racers at the track might need and these are parts that we bought when we were racing kawi's, things like CDI's, magnetos, oil cables, etc. I don't know what all is in these buckets, but if anyone is interested, I'd be willing to inventory it this week-end and give you prices. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From edc at remedy.com Mon Feb 10 08:57:35 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Fw: Kawasaki 440 Flywheel with ring gear Message-ID: <199702101652.IAA07646@lists1.best.com> Folks, can anyone help this guy out? He's not on the F500 list, so please reply to him directly. ---------- > From: Richard Grunenwald > Subject: Kawasaki 440 Flywheel with ring gear > Date: Sunday, February 09, 1997 10:04 AM > > I picked up your addresses via the Amateur Motorsports Web Site. > > I have an '87 Red Devil I am preparing for Solo II, and am in need of a > flywheel with ring gear on it so I can install the electric starter. Also, > may be interested in miscellaneous Kawasaki 440 parts, or other Red Devil 440 > parts. > > Please respond if you can assist. Thanks for your help. > > Rich Grunenwald > rwgrunenwald@msn.com > 614-847-8212, ext 225 Days > From KBSENGR at aol.com Tue Feb 11 09:30:41 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: REPLACEMENT PARTS Message-ID: <199702111631.IAA04887@lists1.best.com> Hi Yes some parts are interchangable. We made most of the machined parts for the Zink 19 and 22. Front hubs can be interchanged, but the offset is differant. The original Zink hubs were longer. Some of the Z-19's used KBS front uprights. Rear hubs, drive hubs, brake hubs are available to fit the Z-19. Some of the Z-19's used the KBS steering rack. KBS wheels were used on many of the Z-19 and Z-22. We also made many of the machined parts for many of the Red Devils. We can duplicate most of the parts used in formula cars. Mike KBS Engr From KBSENGR at aol.com Mon Feb 17 11:18:32 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Las Vegas double regional Message-ID: <199702171819.KAA16586@lists1.best.com> Las Vegas Feb 15 & 16 Sharon Lopardo set a new track record on Saturday in her KBS MK-7 Rotax powered racer. Finished first overall in the group of F-5's, FV's and FF's. Ed Kincade out of Colorado was there with his new T-27 Rotax RedDevil. Don has pushed the total overall length to max. An interesting car, Ed had the wrong gear on the car and it was only his second event in the car, but he ran pretty good. Sharon broke her Saturday track record and whooped the 2nd place Ford by 17 seconds by the end of the race. Ed spun but was able to finish. It was an enjoyable weekend host by the Arizona Region on Saturday and the Las Vegas Region on Sunday. Well run and mostly on time. Mike From KBSENGR at aol.com Mon Feb 17 13:51:40 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Las Vegas double regional Message-ID: <199702172052.MAA12662@lists1.best.com> Las Vegas Feb 15 & 16 Sharon Lopardo set a new track record on Saturday in her KBS MK-7 Rotax powered racer. Finished first overall in the group of F-5's, FV's and FF's. Ed Kincade out of Colorado was there with his new T-27 Rotax RedDevil. Don has pushed the total overall length to max. An interesting car, Ed had the wrong gear on the car and it was only his second event in the car, but he ran pretty good. Sharon broke her Saturday track record and whooped the 2nd place Ford by 17 seconds by the end of the race. Ed spun but was able to finish. It was an enjoyable weekend host by the Arizona Region on Saturday and the Las Vegas Region on Sunday. Well run and mostly on time. Mike From 70743.1062 at compuserve.com Mon Feb 17 17:48:55 1997 From: 70743.1062 at compuserve.com (David Gill) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <199702180050.QAA12743@lists1.best.com> Saturday 1st - Forrest Sanco (N/H/2) 2nd = Larry Svaton (K/H/2) 3rd = Richard Graham (R/H/K) 4th = Gary Day (K/H/2) Sunday 1st = Larry Svaton (K/H/2) 2nd = Karl Maier (K/H/2) 3rd = Gary Day (K/H/2) 4th = Richard Graham (R/H/K) * Notations as follows N= Novakar K = KBS R = Red Devil H = Hoosier G = Goodyear 2 = 2 Stroke International R = Rotax K = Kawasaki The weather for Friday's practice was: 1st session = Cold, damp but not raining, and cloudy 2nd session = Cold, rainy, cloudy, and slick The weather for the rest of the event was quite similar to Phoenix in January (30's-40's early with midday warming to 60's-70's). Of course, Phoenix was powder dry and Tejas was extremely wettish. Most everyone went out for the first but did not remain on track for the entire 25-min. session Of the few that went out, none were so shortsided as to stay beyone 1-3 laps. Someone usually posts the finish agates on the RIS Motor Sports forum on Compuserve. They are real sticklers about reposts so IF, IF, IF, I get it, I will express such and await eMail queries. At the risk of a Sanco Specialties plug.............................. Forrest (Sanco) earned his victory, finishing an engine swap after sticking engine #1. Engine #2 was in about 42.76923 seconds before the first call for Group 1 (us). Sunday qualifying saw Forrest either set a record or at least "rub on it", cutting a few good laps before sticking a ring. He fixed the ring and went out only to have one cylinder get sick. No autopsy yet. Jason (Fox) (N/H/K) DNS/DNF, had motor problems all weekend. He borrowed a bottom end and spent all Saturday assembling an engine for Sunday. Sunday saw him break a chain in qualifying and throwing it off in the race. My (David Gill) (K/H/K) weekend was not quite so bad. I was plagued with running out of parts but not wanting to buy more (more on that follows). Saturday qualifying found me with a wheel out of balance, a front alignment problem, and fog on my visor that relegated me to that of on-track menace. I fixed all that but fought the car to a 6th place (last running) with inadequate toe-in, inability to turn left with any speed, and too little seat time. Sunday saw me still fighting my driving while wondering if the car is as good as I can get it (which I doubt). Not wanting to buy more drive belts (I promise I will tell why), I dug out an antique, drove it in qualifying and snapped it on lap 3 of the race like a Dorito(tm). This is my last race using a Kawasaki. I will stand down for March. I have too much work to do out of town (my job), I will be installing my 2SI (AMW) engine (my obsession), and saving some money (don't laugh!!). THAT's why I was reluctant to buy stuff. I am not sure enough of the install to buy belts. Besides I might get stupid and buy a new driven clutch, too (do NOT tell my whyffe). I will post a "Kawasaki for Sale" ad here soon, so you Kawasaki hard-heads, get your money ready. Gotta go! dg From brianlm at erols.com Mon Feb 17 18:16:53 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: AMW for sale Message-ID: <199702180120.RAA05706@lists1.best.com> For Sale Complete AMW with five races since new( bought in Feb '96). comes with coated pipe. no reasonable offer refused(New trailer arriving soon)!! From brianlm at erols.com Mon Feb 17 18:16:53 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: AMW for sale Message-ID: <199702180120.RAA05706@lists1.best.com> For Sale Complete AMW with five races since new( bought in Feb '96). comes with coated pipe. no reasonable offer refused(New trailer arriving soon)!! From jcook03 at emory.edu Wed Feb 19 10:22:24 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Moroso Race References: <199702191631.IAA11292@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702191654.IAA23897@lists1.best.com> KBSENGR@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the Moroso Feb 15th national race. > > I heard that someone broke their Rotax??? > > Mike Give me about 15 minutes...I'll post something. Julie From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Feb 19 09:30:48 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Moroso Race Message-ID: <199702191631.IAA11292@lists1.best.com> Does anyone know anything about the Moroso Feb 15th national race. I heard that someone broke their Rotax??? Mike From jcook03 at emory.edu Wed Feb 19 10:24:23 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Moroso Race References: <970219113042_-804583101@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <199702191654.IAA23676@lists1.best.com> KBSENGR@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone know anything about the Moroso Feb 15th national race. > > I heard that someone broke their Rotax??? > > Mike Hmmm. May take a little longer than 15...Jim's with a customer. J From pcronan at islc.net Wed Feb 19 16:01:49 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Moroso Race In-Reply-To: <199702191631.IAA11292@lists1.best.com> References: <199702191631.IAA11292@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702192251.OAA01300@lists1.best.com> On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:30:48 -0500 (EST), you wrote: >Does anyone know anything about the Moroso Feb 15th national race. > >I heard that someone broke their Rotax??? > >Mike > Mike, You may want to give Howell a call. He was at the race. I'd ask him myself but I have Jury Duty this week so I won't see him until Monday. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From KBSENGR at aol.com Thu Feb 20 08:33:32 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Fwd: Moroso Message-ID: <199702201534.HAA15712@lists1.best.com> --------------------- Forwarded message: From: jcook03@emory.edu (Julie Cook) To: KBSENGR@aol.com Date: 97-02-20 10:12:37 EST Mike, I can't get a message through to the F500 mail list. I don't know if the list is down or if it's my server. I'm forwarding you the message about the results at Moroso. If you can get through could you post this? Julie By the time I got the information from Jim Elder my server was down and then when it came back up, it kept bouncing my messages back to me telling me the F500 host was unknown. I'm hoping today is going to be a better day in the life of the Emory Connection. Here is what I tried to post yesterday: Wouldn't you know that about the time I found out the information about the Moroso race, my server would crash! Anyhow, I talked with Jim Elder and he told me that it was a wet week-end with the rain finally ending before the race...only to start again just before their race began. So everyone scurried around and replaced slicks with rains and went out. Only five cars were entered...four AMW's and one Rotax. The finishing order was: 1 Howell Jones KBS MK VII AMW 2 Jim Elder Dolphin AMW 3 Tom Stevens, Jr. Sidewinder AMW 4 Chuck McAbee KBS MV VII Rotax Chuck had the only Rotax and did not actually have engine problems. Once again, he had trouble with a broken pull rope. Somebody buy the man a thicker rope! This isn't the first time he's had these problems. When we see him at Road Atlanta (I suspect we'll see him) we'll show him how to start the car with a rope on the clutch. Julie Cook (Hoping this makes it this time. I feel cut off from the world!) From JDMurphy47 at aol.com Sun Feb 23 17:29:19 1997 From: JDMurphy47 at aol.com (JDMurphy47@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil Message-ID: <199702240030.QAA04825@lists1.best.com> If you go road racing with the 1985 Red Devil you will be disappointed; it is old technology and usually needs lots of maintenance, however this car would be a good SoloII car. How much much time and money you have detemines whether you go autocrossing or road racing - Solo II takes 10% of the time & money that road racing does. Before you decide spend several weekends with a National F500 team and learn as much as you can about the cars as possible - this will greatly help in avoiding a lot of frustrating and expensive mistakes on your own car. I should know I road raced a F440 from 1981 to 1985 when I ran out of time & money and have been autocrossing a F440 ever since. Jim From CKHK18F at prodigy.com Mon Feb 24 07:42:45 1997 From: CKHK18F at prodigy.com (MR PETER STEWART) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil Message-ID: <199702241455.GAA07137@lists1.best.com> Thanks for the advice Jim. Maybe we will run the car in autocrosses for this year and buy something else for road racing. Dad says it will depend on how things go. I posted a note here after I subscribed but I haven't seen it show up yet. I wanted to know about other engines that are available for this car. The car has a Chapparel now that is really tired. I know that there are Kawasakis and AMWs because I've seen them run at Grattan my local track. Some one told me that there is an engine from Sea Doo or Ski Doo that you can run also. What is it? My friend also said there was some one at scca named Steven or Sven that is a dealer for these engines or parts or something. Is this true? If not how can some one find out about one of these. How much does each of the other engines cost? It's still cold here in Michigan so I have time to do research on engines. Pete From jcook03 at emory.edu Mon Feb 24 09:21:05 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil References: <199702241455.GAA07137@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702241547.HAA14106@lists1.best.com> Hi Pete, MR PETER STEWART wrote: > My friend also said there was some one at scca named Steven or Sven that is a dealer for these > engines or parts or something. Sven's gonna love hearing this! Actually, Pete, Sven Pruitt is the person your friend was talking about, and he's on the Compliance Board of the SCCA. He is not affiliated with Rotax, although some of us accused him of that at the beginning. But then, we're friends, and he just laughed it off and assured us that no he wasn't affiliated with Rotax. >Is this true? If not how can some one find out about one of these. How much does each of the other engines > cost? It's still cold here in Michigan so I have time to do research > on engines. > I'm going to leave the Rotax and AMW issues alone, I suspect you'll hear from plenty of people who will give yo this information. I will tell you that you can find kawasaki engines very cheap because they are not competitive in National and most regional races. We have a package we're trying to sell, which includes two kawasaki engines and three or four boxes of spares which include gasket kits, seals, CDI box, who knows what else. We'd like to sell the whole package for around $1,000, but would be willing to negotiate. Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html From edc at remedy.com Mon Feb 24 09:37:06 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil Message-ID: <199702241659.IAA20849@lists1.best.com> > I posted a note here after I subscribed but I haven't seen it show up > yet. It didn't show up beacuse it was sent to f440@lists.best.com, which is no longer active. I've fised your message out of the bit bucket and will repost it to the F500 list in a few minutes. This is a good time to remind everyone that the correct address for posting to the F500 list is: F500@lists.best.com > I wanted to know about other engines that are available for this > car. The car has a Chapparel now that is really tired. I know that > there are Kawasakis and AMWs because I've seen them run at Grattan my > local track. The Kawis are cheap, and should be pretty easy to find these days. The problme is that they really aren't competitive agains the modern engines and some parts for them (especially crankshafts) are hard to find. > Some one told me that there is an engine from Sea Doo or > Ski Doo that you can run also. What is it? It's the Rotax 494. It's used on several of the Ski-Doo snomobiles. Either the AMW or Rotax will run you about $2500, plus the bits and pices to install it on the car. Figure on spending $3000 for the conversion. -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From edc at remedy.com Mon Feb 24 09:55:44 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Formula 500 (fwd) Message-ID: <199702241655.IAA16006@lists1.best.com> I have a soft spot in my heart for these poor Formula SAE guys. I've worked with a couple of these teams as an advisor over the years. They manage to do amazing things with a little sonsorship money, a bit of ingenuity and a lot of hard work. So if you have old parts laying around that you'd like to get rid of, these formula SAE teams are a good cause. DANNY S. STORM writes: > From: "DANNY S. STORM" > Subject: Formula 500 > > To Whom It May Concern: > > I am a student at University of North Carolina @ Charlotte and I am in > the Mechanical Engineering Technology Class and we have a team that > is designing a Formula car similar to the F500. I do some SCCA racing > and I am familiar with this F500 or F440. I have been trying to get > some parts for our car, but I am having a hard time locating everything > I need. I was wondering if there was any way you could help us out in > getting some of these parts. Some of these main parts are the entire > suspension (Spindles, A-arms, Short rack and pinnion steering, disc > brakes). We just about have completed our chassis, which has a 72" > wheel base and approx. 48" track width. It will be powered by a 600cc > Honda F2 motorcycle engine and we are not sure what the best way is to > transmit power to the rear axle with independent suspension and > differential. > If you sell these parts, that would be great, I would like to get > everything from one place if possible. We have a few sponsors that are > willing to help us out with some of these parts. So, if you could > please send me some information on prices, etc..., that would help us > out a lot. We will need to have this car done in the end of April and > any information that you could supply us with would be greatly > appreciated. Thank you for your time and consideration. > > Danny Storm > P.O. Box 429 > Albemarle, N.C. 28002-429 > Home: 704/485-3614 > Work: 704/983-2040 > Fax: 704/982-9657 > > From pcronan at islc.net Mon Feb 24 19:46:18 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil In-Reply-To: <199702241547.HAA14106@lists1.best.com> References: <199702241455.GAA07137@lists1.best.com> <199702241547.HAA14106@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702250235.SAA13995@lists1.best.com> On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 11:21:05 -0500, you wrote: >MR PETER STEWART wrote: >> My friend also said there was some one at scca named Steven or Sven that is a dealer for these >> engines or parts or something. > > > Sven's gonna love hearing this! Actually, Pete, Sven Pruitt >is the person your friend was talking about, and he's on the Compliance >Board of the SCCA. He is not affiliated with Rotax, although some of us >accused him of that at the beginning. But then, we're friends, and he >just laughed it off and assured us that no he wasn't affiliated with >Rotax. > > Boy, you people sure make it hard on me not to come out with some snide remark. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From jcook03 at emory.edu Mon Feb 24 20:40:11 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Road Atlanta National Message-ID: <199702250358.TAA12513@lists1.best.com> Fine Line Racing will be hosting a party this Saturday night at the Road Atlanta National race (provided it's not raining, the tent's not large enough to grill burgers, host a large number of people and keep two cars dry at the same time) for F500 drivers, crew, family, potential F500 drivers, etc. If you're at the track plan to join us. We'll even break out the laptop and play Nascar 2 and Grand Prix 2. I may even be willing to give up precious hard drive space for Indy Car II for the weekend....maybe. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From CKHK18F at prodigy.com Tue Feb 25 09:16:07 1997 From: CKHK18F at prodigy.com (MR PETER STEWART) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil Message-ID: <199702251621.IAA15858@lists1.best.com> I'm new here and really don't get what Pat meant in his note. Can some one please explain. Pat are you some one I should know in this class? Thanxs Pete From dillon.pyron at amd.com Tue Feb 25 10:53:45 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil In-Reply-To: CKHK18F@prodigy.com (MR PETER STEWART) "Re: 1985 Red Devil" (Feb 25, 11:16am) References: <199702251621.IAA15858@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702251754.JAA21338@lists1.best.com> I suspect this is a case of this car being not only 12 years old, but several generations old, to boot. Much like, say a Z-19. :-) Sorry guys, cheap shot. That is clearly a case of a good driver taking advantage of circumstances. -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 I want to be the person my dog thinks I am. From staggs at marsweb.com Tue Feb 25 10:46:36 1997 From: staggs at marsweb.com (Don Staggs) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1994 Red Devil Message-ID: <199702251647.IAA05358@lists1.best.com> This is a Mini-Indy that is raced in Montana and Washington. This car normally has wings on front and rear. It is powered by a 521 Rotax with twin pipes and 40mm. carbs. It is raced on paved ovals, 1/4 3/8 and half mile tracks. We have run high 12's on the 3/8 mile track and upper 18 second range on the half mile track.This car has aprox. 105 hp. I have had several letters asking about the Mini-Indy's of Montana and tried to reply but I figured that this would be faster. Sincerely: Don Staggs staggs@marsweb.com -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: bessev@marsweb.com (Bessie Evans) Subject: how's this Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:05:34 GMT Size: 90864 Url: http://f500.org/pipermail/f500/attachments/19970225/8fe31cab/attachment.mht From dillon.pyron at amd.com Tue Feb 25 14:56:28 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Choice of three cars. Message-ID: <199702252157.NAA07864@lists1.best.com> Okay, only an idiot buys the newest and hotest to start in any sport (yeah, I bought a set of Pings :-). And only a fool buys the cheapest. But there seems to be a lot of middle ground right now. I see a '90 Z-22 for $4000, a '93 Red Devil for $6000 and (to throw in some confusion), a KBS MK-3 for $3900. Of course, since I also need a trailer, there is another Z-22 listed for $8000 with trailer (and lots of goodies). Any recomendations would be muchly appreciated. -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 I want to be the person my dog thinks I am. From 70743.1062 at compuserve.com Tue Feb 25 15:13:45 1997 From: 70743.1062 at compuserve.com (David Gill) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Results Message-ID: <199702252216.OAA19061@lists1.best.com> All, I received the following from Lynda Polk (SWD/Hou). John & Lynda participate in the RIS Motorsports Forum on Compuserve. I extended her my thanks and, if you have the opportunity, please do so yourself. dg --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- David, Sorry it has taken me several days, but I finally got a moment to upload the Double National results to this forum. They should be in the Section 5 Library as soon as they clear customs. I posted them to the website on Wednesday. All Southwest Division results are posted on the Houston Region website at www.houscca.com. Thanks for your patience. Lynda --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- From pcronan at islc.net Tue Feb 25 20:07:09 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil In-Reply-To: <199702251621.IAA15858@lists1.best.com> References: <199702251621.IAA15858@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702260256.SAA29810@lists1.best.com> On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:16:07, -0500, you wrote: >I'm new here and really don't get what Pat meant in his note. Can >some one please explain. Pat are you some one I should know in this >class? Thanxs > >Pete > Pete, No I am not someone you should know about. I am the Sales Manager for the AMW Cuyuna Engine Company. We have had some disagreements with Sven and his boss about what is fair for our engine vs the other engine. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From pcronan at islc.net Tue Feb 25 20:07:09 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 1985 Red Devil In-Reply-To: <199702251621.IAA15858@lists1.best.com> References: <199702251621.IAA15858@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702260256.SAA29810@lists1.best.com> On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 11:16:07, -0500, you wrote: >I'm new here and really don't get what Pat meant in his note. Can >some one please explain. Pat are you some one I should know in this >class? Thanxs > >Pete > Pete, No I am not someone you should know about. I am the Sales Manager for the AMW Cuyuna Engine Company. We have had some disagreements with Sven and his boss about what is fair for our engine vs the other engine. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From thlavin at cybergate.net Tue Feb 25 20:36:57 1997 From: thlavin at cybergate.net (Tom Hlavin) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Choice of three cars. Message-ID: <199702260337.TAA14202@lists1.best.com> I believe the others in this group will agree that it depends on at least two things: 1. What you want to accomplish with your racing program, and: 2. The condition of the car and how many spares you get. In other words, do you want the car to get you through a driver's school or run regionals or nationals? Are you going to learn with one car and when you're comfortable with the f5 concept, will you buy another car/update your equipment? Will the car meet the new '98 roll bar specs or need substantial updating to continue to pass tech? Additionally, how many spares do you get? When I bought my car, I bought it race ready with not one spare. It got me through school and enough regional races to get my national license, but now as I prepare to go racing on a national level, I am forced to buy those nickel and dime (read $50 and $100) items like spare wheels and tires, not to mention a new Rotax for a couple grand. If you gave the group here those kind of details, I'm sure you'll get your answer. Tom "I spent my money on beer, women and racing. The rest I wasted." From staggs at marsweb.com Tue Feb 25 22:59:42 1997 From: staggs at marsweb.com (Don Staggs) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 500 Rotax Message-ID: <199702260500.VAA09043@lists1.best.com> My name is Don Staggs, I race Mini-Indy's in Montana. My question is : If you are allowing the 500 Rotax run this year, what is going to happen next year when the new 500 is improved to the 500 R.A.V.E. valve engine. Or does the new engine already have them? Don From dillon.pyron at amd.com Wed Feb 26 08:34:28 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Choice of three cars. In-Reply-To: "Tom Hlavin" "Re: Choice of three cars." (Feb 25, 10:36pm) References: <199702252238.WAA10985@nemesis.cyberdrive.net> Message-ID: <199702261535.HAA06778@lists1.best.com> Fair enough. Requirements are always a good thing. I'm looking for a car to run Solo II for a while, then compete in Regional until I nail down the car and decide on either staying in F500 or moving up. So a solid starter car, with an acknowledegment that I won't be a consistent winner in it, is what I'm looking for. At this point, I could spend $17K+ on a fully dressed out MK-8 and be about as competitive, except that I wouldn't be able to afford to race :-) Yes, spares figure in to some of the prices, significantly it appears (one has two engines to offer!) in some cases. And in the midst of this, I'm planning on attending either Barber or Bondurant prior to the SCCA school. Thanks for the comments. A little reality always helps. -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 I want to be the person my dog thinks I am. From edc at remedy.com Wed Feb 26 08:31:17 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Choice of three cars. Message-ID: <199702261527.HAA02230@lists1.best.com> > Okay, only an idiot buys the newest and hotest to start in any sport (yeah, I > bought a set of Pings :-). And only a fool buys the cheapest. But there > seems to be a lot of middle ground right now. I see a '90 Z-22 for $4000, a > '93 Red Devil for $6000 and (to throw in some confusion), a KBS MK-3 for $3900. Humm.... well purely from a technical standpoint, out of the three I'd favor the Red Devil. They are good, quick cars, and you can get parts and support from the factory. They will also take the AMW or Rotax engine with little trouble. One warning about the T-2x Red Devils... you need to weld on these chassis a lot. I've had 2 Red Devils myself, and I race with several other guys with them out here. They seem to have problems with fatigue cracks in the frame once they get 20 or 30 races on them. It's not a big deal to fix, but you need to be aware of it so you can catch the cracks before they become problems. KBS builds great cars, but a MK-3 is so old that it's hardly worth bothering with. It's short wheelbase with a very rigid suspension. I don't think it'll meet 1998 roll hoop specifications either, which means you're going to have to do major surgery to replace the roll bars over the winter. Leave that one for someone who only wants to autocross. It's do OK there. If you can find a KBS MK-V, that's a different story. That's probably the best used car you can lay your hands on. Still very competitive at the National level and will continue to be for awhile. It might cost you a few bucks more, but I see them in the $7000 range from time to time. I can't comment on the Z-22, since I've never actually seen one. I do know that the Zinks have pretty primitive suspensions compared with the modern cars. Considering the price, I'd be leery. You usually get what you pay for in a race car. As a general rule, I wouldn't consider anything that's short wheelbase or built before 1990. Also be leery of one-off specials. Sooner or later you'll find yourself shelling out big bucks to have a part custom made. I'd recommend staying with the established manufacturers like KBS or Red Devil. That way you can get parts, and support. Of course, these are only my opinions, which are probably worth about as much as you paid for them. :-) Your mileage may vary. From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Feb 26 08:47:06 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 500 Rotax Message-ID: <199702261547.HAA15926@lists1.best.com> Hi Don The Rotax authorized for 1997 DOES NOT have a R.A.V.E. valve. It is our understanding that engines with out the R.A.V.E. valve will be available next year only through the Rotax importer. But who knows what will be allowed by scca. Mike From edc at remedy.com Wed Feb 26 08:05:51 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 500 Rotax Message-ID: <199702261554.HAA21104@lists1.best.com> > My name is Don Staggs, I race Mini-Indy's in Montana. My question > is : If you are allowing the 500 Rotax run this year, what is going to > happen next year when the new 500 is improved to the 500 R.A.V.E. valve > engine. Or does the new engine already have them? Well, our engines are spec engines, meaning that a very specific version of the Rotax 494 is allowed, and only in bone stock, from the factory trim. No modifications are allowed to the engines at all. So we won't get to use the RAVE version of the engine. Now, if Rotax stops building the 494 in favor of the RAVE valve version, things could get interesting. -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From edc at remedy.com Wed Feb 26 08:05:51 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 500 Rotax Message-ID: <199702261554.HAA21104@lists1.best.com> > My name is Don Staggs, I race Mini-Indy's in Montana. My question > is : If you are allowing the 500 Rotax run this year, what is going to > happen next year when the new 500 is improved to the 500 R.A.V.E. valve > engine. Or does the new engine already have them? Well, our engines are spec engines, meaning that a very specific version of the Rotax 494 is allowed, and only in bone stock, from the factory trim. No modifications are allowed to the engines at all. So we won't get to use the RAVE version of the engine. Now, if Rotax stops building the 494 in favor of the RAVE valve version, things could get interesting. -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Feb 26 09:13:38 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 500 Rotax Message-ID: <199702261614.IAA07891@lists1.best.com> Hi Eric I answered Dillon last nite off the list. The MK-3 is Jim Hale's. Very extensive updates, 4-link, new style shocks, etc. Many of the parts used on the MK-3's are interchangeable with current parts. If Dillon will be autocrossing then I don't think the short wheelbase is of concern. For the record all MK-3's and MK-4's were built with 1-1/2" roll bars. There were only 7 MK-5's (all built in 1989) that do not have 1998 legal rollbars. Mike From edc at remedy.com Wed Feb 26 09:42:32 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 500 Rotax Message-ID: <199702261638.IAA25714@lists1.best.com> > From: KBSENGR@aol.com > I answered Dillon last nite off the list. The MK-3 is Jim Hale's. Very > extensive updates, 4-link, new style shocks, etc. Many of the parts used on > the MK-3's are interchangeable with current parts. Ok, I stand corrected. Thanks for straightening me out Mike. Like I said, my opionion is usually worth what you paid for it. :-) -------------------------------------- Eric D. Christensen - Web Janitor - Remedy Corporation Email: edc@Remedy.COM Phone: (415)903-5244 FAX: (415)903-9001 Oznog Motorsports - SCCA Formula 500 - http://www.oznog.com "You can educate ignorant, but you can't fix stupid!" From jcook03 at emory.edu Wed Feb 26 10:35:38 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: 500 Rotax References: <199702261614.IAA07891@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702261701.JAA09337@lists1.best.com> KBSENGR@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Eric There > were only 7 MK-5's (all built in 1989) that do not have 1998 legal rollbars. > > > Mike You built 7 of those cars in 1989? I thought it was only 5...the two we had, and the three that came out of the West. I know where the two we had are, do you know where the others are? We like keeping up with who has which cars :) Julie From hiha at tfs.com Wed Feb 26 11:40:00 1997 From: hiha at tfs.com (Harry Iha) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Where are the 1989 KBS Mk-V's Message-ID: <199702261843.KAA07033@lists1.best.com> > KBSENGR@aol.com wrote: > > > > Hi Eric > There > > were only 7 MK-5's (all built in 1989) that do not have 1998 legal rollbars. > > > > > > Mike > > > You built 7 of those cars in 1989? I thought it was only 5...the two we > had, and the three that came out of the West. I know where the two we > had are, do you know where the others are? We like keeping up with who > has which cars :) > > Julie > I know where one is. It's 89-02, with a nice, shiny plaque proclaiming it's the first Mk-V Ramblebee (I'm assuming 89-01 was the prototype?). It's still on the West Coast, going through drivers school in SFR in three days! Hi Mike. Yup, I'll be one of the people dropping off a car for the rollbar upgrade we discussed. The good news is that I actually fit in the car now! For those of you who are wondering, I'm 5'2" (if I stretch and tippy-toe). The previous two drivers were quite a bit taller. So the first time I slid in, the steering wheel was above my head. I've unofficially named the car "shrimpmobile," since you now have to be a shrimp in order to get in: seat position's moved up about six inches and the pedals were moved back about the same. And with all the extra plates welded in for the seat back and new footwall, I still had to add 25 lbs. to make the 750 lb. weight minimum. Which leads to another topic. Since the Kawasaki engines are no longer competitive, even with the weight advantage, how many people would be interested in trying to get them competitive again by lowering or eliminating the minimum weight for Kawasaki powered cars? My truck and I wouldn't mind hauling a lighter car around, and if I set my mind to it, I could probably get it down near 650 lbs. next year. I like that idea. Anyone else? Harry I. Iha hiha@tfs.com From jcook03 at emory.edu Wed Feb 26 12:37:09 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Where are the 1989 KBS Mk-V's References: Message-ID: <199702261905.LAA20627@lists1.best.com> > > > Julie > > > > I know where one is. > > It's 89-02, with a nice, shiny plaque proclaiming it's the first > Mk-V Ramblebee (I'm assuming 89-01 was the prototype?). It's still > on the West Coast, going through drivers school in SFR in three days! That accounts for three then. We sold one (Paul's car) to Tom Edwards, Jr. this past winter and David's car was totalled by Bob Denyse. J From Mike.Penland at DANA.COM Thu Feb 27 10:52:28 1997 From: Mike.Penland at DANA.COM (Mike.Penland@DANA.COM) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199702271805.KAA27581@lists1.best.com> The F500 mailing list has the pleasure of witnessing this, my first Internet message, ever. ( I hope this makes it to the correct place) I need some good, free, accurate, unbiased, educated advice. I currently run Solo II with 1988 KBS MK IV. I'm running 40 duro "biscuits" in the front "shocks". I'm looking to replace the rear biscuits and wondering if 50 duro is intended for the rear, or will 40 be better. Any thoughts ? Mike P. From chuskamp at umr.edu Thu Feb 27 21:36:35 1997 From: chuskamp at umr.edu (Chris Huskamp) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: subscribe me to the mailer. Message-ID: <199702280236.SAA12053@lists1.best.com> Please subscribe me to your mailing list. I own and operate Huskamp MotorSports, which supplies specialty materials (ie composites, titanium, and high strength aluminuim) advice and component manufacture. Thanks chuskamp@umr.edu Chris Huskamp From jcook03 at emory.edu Fri Feb 28 08:42:11 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Road Atlanta Message-ID: <199702281506.HAA05795@lists1.best.com> It's 2 am, it's pouring down rain, we're wearing sunglasses, we have a half tank.....no...wait a minute, wrong story...it's 2 am, it's pouring down rain and we've finally finished loading the trailer! Now all we have to do is go home, take a shower and set the alarm clock for 5:15 so Rusty can make it to work on time. Someone remind me that racing is fun :) Seriously, tho', I'll try to post an update Saturday night letting y'all know how things are going and another on Sunday night with results from the Road Atlanta National. It should be a good weekend despite the rain. Julie From dillon.pyron at amd.com Fri Feb 28 10:05:50 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Digest f500.v001.n030 In-Reply-To: David Gill <70743.1062@CompuServe.COM> "Re: Digest f500.v001.n030" (Feb 28, 11:11am) References: <970228161114_70743.1062_CHK62-1@CompuServe.COM> Message-ID: <199702281706.JAA02690@lists1.best.com> David, this is EXACTLY why I subscribed to this list. You were hardly verbose, and were clear in where your opinions and facts were stated. Thanks greatly. I believe the Texas Lotto is $26M this weekend. Maybe I'll buy a new car on Monday :-) In the meantime, I just bought some RSIIs for the Civic! -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 I want to be the person my dog thinks I am. From KBSENGR at aol.com Fri Feb 28 10:21:23 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Goodyear news release Message-ID: <199702281722.JAA08878@lists1.best.com> Just received a copy of the official Goodyear news release #21136tl.197 of Jan. 27th. To paraphrase the news release: Goodyears production of bias race tires will be phased out over the next year and a half because of financial losses, resulting in the loss of appox 150 jobs. "Bias race tire production at the Akron Tech Center simply is not competitive." Low cost manufacturers like Hoosier, Specialty Tires (McCreary & Mickey Thompson) have been the major competetors in bias racing tires. This move affects drag racing, short track, dirt oval and Formula-500 road racing. Mike KBS From 70743.1062 at CompuServe.COM Fri Feb 28 09:11:15 1997 From: 70743.1062 at CompuServe.COM (David Gill) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Digest f500.v001.n030 Message-ID: <199702281614.IAA21454@lists1.best.com> Dillon (et al), Since I have owned a stock Zink Z-22 ('89) and I know the original builder (Mike Alexander) I not only know the car well but I am familiar with why the car is the way it is. Many will agree with me when I tell you that F500's (nee F440's) have evolved in a manner other than steady evolution. I like to refer to them as eras. The first era saw cars running Fuji Chapparal engines that had literally no suspension. These cars often used half midget tires with no tread cut in them (unless one wanted a set of "rain" tires). Most cars had a complete roll cage as opposed to dual roll bars as most of our cars now have. They looked anything like a race car. It was a beginning and I believe a good one. I am grateful to those who created our class. Around 1982, cars started appearing with simple suspensions utilizing the ubiquitous "rubbers" we now must abide by but, unilike then, the use of the elasticity of the rubbers has been greatly extended both in confinement and materials (rubber ain't always rubber). Many methods were and are tried in an attempt to increase wheel travel to soften the ride and increase handling. Some were more successful than others and I will not evaluate them here. Most of these methods had one thing in common and that commonality was that the engine, driveline, and rear wheels were mounted together and separate to the main frame. This era also saw the emergence of the Kawasaki engine as the mainstay powerplant of the class. This is what I call the second era. The third era saw the dawn of a revolutionary change in rear suspension design. Front suspension design evolved as well but, not as dramatically as the rear setup. Gone was the subframe. The main frame was extended and the engine mounted on it along with most everything else on the car. Many innovations emerged in an attempt to integrate the engine on the main frame and allow the rear axle to pivot freely through a range of travel that, too, was new. I have seen several solutions to this problem and, although I recently purchased a used MkV, I am not ready to pronounce any of these solutions as superior to the rest. Of the ones I have seen, all have their strengths and all have limitations. Dillon, I believe that we are nearing the end of the third era but I am not in a position to speculate as to how the next era will be defined. I sometime sit up in bed and read the GCR to help me get sleepy (it works wonders) and try to find loopholes in the rules that a car builder could possibly exploit. There are some. But back to the Z-22. I regret neither buying the car when I did nor selling it when I did. It was the right car and the right time for me. I have many fond memmories of racing the car but alas, I did get what I paid for and the best outing got me to second place in a rather sparse field of cars. I can no longer recommend the car because it is just too old and outdated for anything other than autocrossing or a major suspension redesign which would probably net you a better handling car with a 40 or so pound weight reduction. But the frontal area will never go away and considerable reengineering would have to take place. The cost of the car and the modifications would probably equate to a '93-'94 racer ready to go (competitively). I deliberated over this myself recently so I am familiar with the issues. I am happy for Mr. Bennet and his victory in his Z-19 but, we must remember that his car was anything but a stock Zink and it did have an AMW. Add his driving skill and knowledge of the track to the opening "theatrics" and you have a National Champion. (NOTE: Luck is where opportunity and preparation intersect). Mr. Partida almost shattered the dream, too. Mr. Bennet did NOT have the fastest car, only the first to cross the finish line. I have had some fun with the results, though. Being the owner of a car more sophisticated than the National Champion (approximately more sophisticated), I was able to rub a little sugar (not salt) into the wounds of my KBS/NovaKar/Red Devil compadres. Obviously, since I recently purchased a KBS MkV, my bias is stated. However, given the right circumstances, the overall package, and the state of condition of the car, other brands should be considered. The Kawasaki engine is an inexpensive way to start but, if you intend to race (as opposed to autocrossing), you should immediately begin planning for one of the new engines. I cannot tell you which one to choose because, although I have asked many questions concerning both, the answers I received do not define a clearly superior alternative. Each has its advantages and drawbacks but no clear power advantage which is relieving to the rules makers. At the risk of being somewhat verbose, I hope this serves as a guideline and deposition on how some of the aspects of our class came to be. I am not a historian but I have been in and out of the class twice. I am back in this class because it is where I belong in racing. Stay in touch dg ps. For those who are interested, I have the issue of SportsCar (circa '79) that contained the original article and pictures of our then new class. From jcook03 at emory.edu Fri Feb 28 12:49:32 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Goodyear news release References: <199702281722.JAA08878@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199702281913.LAA16681@lists1.best.com> KBSENGR@aol.com wrote: > > Just received a copy of the official Goodyear news release #21136tl.197 of > Jan. 27th. > > To paraphrase the news release: > > Goodyears production of bias race tires will be phased out over the next year > and a half because of financial losses, resulting in the loss of appox 150 > jobs. > > "Bias race tire production at the Akron Tech Center simply is not > competitive." > > Low cost manufacturers like Hoosier, Specialty Tires (McCreary & Mickey > Thompson) have been the major competetors in bias racing tires. This move > affects drag racing, short track, dirt oval and Formula-500 road racing. > > Mike > KBS It's our understanding that Goodyear's production at Akron, Oh of bias race tires will be phased out and that these tires will be produced in Brazil in the future. Julie & Rusty Cook Sponsor: Goodyear From jcook03 at emory.edu Thu Feb 27 22:37:06 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Road Atlanta - Friday Message-ID: <199703010543.VAA29727@lists1.best.com> Well, we just got back from the track where it's _still_ raining. It looks like we're going to run in the rain at least through warm-up on Sunday morning. They're saying it should clear up by the afternoon and since we're Group 6 we may be able to race on a dry track. There are 9 F500's preregistered for this one. I don't know where everyone else is, it's unfortunate, this race generally has 22 entries. Anyhow, looks like we'll have 3 Rotax entries and 6 AMW's. The Rotax entries are Rusty (KBS MKV) Jack Walbran (KBS MK8) and Greg Riehle (KBS MK8). Chuck McAbee may show up as a late entry, he has a KBS MK VII with a Rotax. The AMW entries are Howell Jones (KBS MKVII), Wesley Wilfong (Sidewinder), Fred Edwards, Jr. (KBS MKVII), Tom Edwards (KBS MKV) and Scott Woodruff (SWwhatever he calls it), the ninth person Rusty didn't know, I suspect it's Brian Marrin. I'll let you know how it goes. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From jcook03 at emory.edu Sun Mar 2 20:10:52 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Road Atlanta Message-ID: <199703030330.TAA27622@lists1.best.com> Well, the Road Atlanta National is over and our first race with the Rotax engine is in the book. Things went pretty good, although we're going to have to spend some time figuring out what clutch and carb setups are going to work best for us with the Rotax, but then that's to be expected. We've got to get Rusty well also. Saturday was beautiful with 80 degree temps and clear skies. The first session out both cars studdered and cut out. We immediately pinpointed that one to a fuel problem. On Rusty's car, we put a pulse fuel pump and on Jack's we bypassed the surge tank. Both solutions fixed the problem. We plan to take the surge tanks out, this will give us more room in the back of a really crowded engine compartment! The second session was the only qualifying session. Both cars ran well, but Howell Jones was flying! I clocked him at a 1:31.6 his crew guy clocked him at 1:31.4, T&S posted his time at 1:28.11. We're sure that was wrong (they also made a couple of mistakes with the Vee's) but regardless this was still a track record time. Scott Woodruff qualified second with a low 1:32 and Wesley Wilfong qualified 3rd with a mid 1:32. Rusty qualified 4th with a 1:33.3. Tom Edwards, Fred Edwards, Greg Reihle, Jack Walbran and another KBS with a kawi rounded out the field. Rusty had low EGT's and his RPM's never got above 7600 and the car had a serious push. Add to that he was sick with the flu or something and was running a fever of over 100, his arm's still not strong, and a serious lack of sleep this past week so he just wasn't in top form. We worked on Jack's car on Saturday night and yes, we partied a little bit and ended up getting in not late, but I was too tired to post anything. We got a good night's sleep, and the rain that was forecasted hadn't arrived, but we had forgotten to get gas so we didn't have enough gas for Rusty to run the warm-up session and we still needed to work on his car so Jack went out and scrubbed tires, but not Rusty. Rusty changed the arms in the clutch but because it started raining we didn't do anything with the carbs. The rain cleared up by the race and we were able to run on slicks. Rusty got a good start, but the car just didn't have it to keep up. Howell took off and ran from the field. Wesley pulled out in second with Scott just behind him in third. Rusty and Tom Edwards ran a good race, although not a front running pace and Jack and Fred Edwards ran a good race. Both Jack and Rusty are happy with the way things went. Jack's car had incredible top end speed so we're going to try to figure out what is different on Jack's car from Rusty's (besides 30 lbs). The most imporant thing is that we don't have to work on the engine between now and Thursday when we leave for Savannah. We'll get Jack's car ready then concentrate on getting Rusty's car right. Overall, it was a successful week-end and we are very optimistic about the way things are going to go with the Rotax engine. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From nick-okc at ix.netcom.com Mon Mar 3 16:14:38 1997 From: nick-okc at ix.netcom.com (Nick Massey) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire Pressures Message-ID: <199703032315.PAA27656@lists1.best.com> With all the experienced F500 racers out there, just thought I'd ask your advice on tire pressures. What tire pressures do you use on your cars, particularly the KBS Mk-7? What is your starting temperature (cold) and what temperature are you trying to achieve on the track? Does increasing tire pressure tend to increase or decrease the ability of the car to stick at that end? What if it's a cool (or cold) day - do you increase pressures to try and be sure the tire gets up to the desired pressure, or do you decrease pressure to try and get the tire to squirm more and generate more temperature that way. Same question for both Goodyears and Hoosiers. Thanks for your advice. Nick Massey Oklahoma City KBS Mk-7/AMW/Hoosier From 70743.1062 at compuserve.com Tue Mar 4 09:13:26 1997 From: 70743.1062 at compuserve.com (dg) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire Pressures Message-ID: <199703041615.IAA26512@lists1.best.com> Gee Nick, After we cover tire pressures, we can jump into insurance, politics, and religion !:) Nick, you are asking a question that will garner you a wide spectrum of answers. Unfortunately, some of the participants will not respond, believing that they have the hot secret tire setup equation. Although some really do, others just believe they do. Let results be your guide. We (SANCO SPECIALTIES) use factors such as ambient temp., track temp., track surface, rubber compound, qualifying or race, weather, and whether or not there is morning condensate on the track to help determine a starting point for tire temps. If we have an opportunity to obtain temp. readings, this also becomes a guide. We read temps. across the entire tread surface. Reading tire temps. is a science unto itself. We, too, are learning. Those who claim they have all the answers should be regarded with skepticism or worshipped as a deity. As the day wears on and track temp. rises (even though ambient may not rise so much), tire pressures will fall. The goal is to have the proper tire pressure when the tire is at optimum temp. The challenge is to try to start with a static pressure that will see the tire "grow" into the proper pressure (without growing to much). I have seen pressures as low as 8#'s but I have never used a pressure below 9.5. I have used pressures as high as 14 but believe now that I should remain at or below 13. Someone else may be able to offer more definitive answers. I can only offer a start. dg From staggs at marsweb.com Tue Mar 4 11:18:24 1997 From: staggs at marsweb.com (Don Staggs) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire sizes and compounds: Message-ID: <199703041719.JAA13859@lists1.best.com> since we been on the tire subject, I would like to know about the tires you use on the f-500's. size, compounds and brand. Also the price and suppliers. thank you. Don Staggs From staggs at marsweb.com Tue Mar 4 11:07:51 1997 From: staggs at marsweb.com (Don Staggs) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: chapparel parts for sale Message-ID: <199703041711.JAA11398@lists1.best.com> If anyone would like chapparel parts please E.mail "staggs@marsweb.com" complete engines, pistons, new crankshaft, heads, jugs, starter kits, too much to list. Don Staggs From jcook03 at emory.edu Tue Mar 4 10:53:19 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire Pressures Message-ID: <199703041715.JAA12385@lists1.best.com> dg responded to your post: >>Nick, you are asking a question that will garner you a wide spectrum of answers. Unfortunately, some of the participants will not respond, believing that they have the hot secret tire setup equation. Although some really do, others just believe they do.<< I doubt that there is a single person who runs up front in National races that won't tell you exactly what tire pressures they are using. I'm not sure most of us even use the complex guidelines that have suggested. We've always run 12/13 or 13/14 with Hoosiers and 14/15 or 15/16 with Goodyears, regardless of any outside factors. We check tire temps only to make sure the the temps are even across the tred which tells us if we have the set up right, if the tire temps aren't even we don't adjust the tire pressure, we adjust camber/toe/weight, etc. Nick, for your information, if you have any questions you'd like answered, about set-up of chassis, clutches, engine, ask. I'm willing to bet you'll get an honest answer from any of the top running teams that will put you into the ballpark, they won't give you their final setups, but they'll get you close enough that if you put some research into it you can get there. From dillon.pyron at amd.com Tue Mar 4 15:22:11 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire Pressures In-Reply-To: Julie Cook "Tire Pressures" (Mar 4, 12:53pm) References: <199703041715.JAA12385@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703042223.OAA12109@lists1.best.com> Speaking of tires, what are people using for wets? My friendly Yoko dealer says that A008's are available in a 10" rim, but he's never seen any and doesn't know if they are actually made anymore. -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 And next time, use a bigger needle From edc at remedy.com Tue Mar 4 11:51:12 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire Pressures Message-ID: <199703041847.KAA26195@lists1.best.com> Tire pressures are largely a metter of current conditions. What we're trying to achive is a given HOT pressure. For the Hoosiers this is about 18psi as a general rule. I'm not sure with the new R160 Goodyear what the pressure they were designed for is. The Goodyear engineers should be able to tell you what the hot pressure should be. Now, how do you get to that hot pressure? By adjusting you cold pressure. This is where the black magic comes in. The only real way to determine this is through testing. Different cars, different tracks and different weather conditions affect your cold pressures. For example, on a really hot, sunny day you may run a slightly higher cold pressure than you would on a cold cloudy day since the tire starts warmer and will gain less pressure as it comes up to temp. Also, softer compounds tend to build more heat (and pressure). Using nitrogen instead of air minimizes the problem since it doesn't "grow" much with heat gain. But it's a pain to carry a nitrogen bottle around, and even more of a pain to try to flush all the air out of a tire and replace it all with nitrogen after the tire busters hav mounted them in the rim. I personally don't bother anymore. Air works just fine. A good pyrometer is absolutly nessecary to optimize you tire pressures. Longacre's memory pyrometer, though a bit pricy, is the best that I've found as far as accuracy, convenience and repeatability. DO NOT USE the new non-contact IR pyrometers. They measure the surface temp which won't give you a good repeatable accureate reading. Use a needle type probe pyrometer that can read 1/8 - 1/4" below the surface. There are also computer programs, like TirePro, that are very helpful for analyzing and compiling a database of tire temps. Ok, that's the long answer. Now the short answer: I use 12 rear, 13 front as a baseline with the Hoosiers. p.s. anyone tried using these new pressure pop-off valves that are on the market? They seem to be very popular with the roundy-round folks. I like the idea if setting the valves for the hot pressure I want, set the pressures high to start and let the valves bleed them down as the tires heat up. I'm concerned about 2 things. Are they realiable? I've never liksed the results of having a tire go flat on me. And I'm not sure what would happen in an extended yellow flag situation where the tires cool down. I'm not sure I'd like to do a restart with the tires down at 11 pounds. From KBSENGR at aol.com Tue Mar 4 17:40:22 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Tire Pressures Message-ID: <199703050041.QAA26902@lists1.best.com> Hi We run about the same pressures 13/14 but will adjust to 14/13 to change a push/loose condition. Might run 12/14 if the spacer likes the set-up. you are right about hot pressure being the key and the track, track conditions, weather, spacer, everything affects it. As far as the pressure relief valves, they work great IF there are no yellows, if the sun dos'nt go behind a cloud. Quit using them, too many yellows!!! Mike def Mike's dictionary: Spacer-----that replaceable part that keeps the rear roll bar from hitting the front roll bar, also can make the most differance in lap times. From staggs at marsweb.com Tue Mar 4 19:47:22 1997 From: staggs at marsweb.com (Don Staggs) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: pressure valves, Message-ID: <199703050148.RAA13508@lists1.best.com> It is my experience that they work very well as long as the race is green flag all the way. When the tires get heated up and the preasures are working just fine, great. When there is a caution and you get slowed down, the tire can lose temperature changing your weights around and set-up. A tire can lose up to 50 degrees per sec. when hot.( if stopped) When your weights are off, the tires that need to work harder may take a few corners to get heated up. I don't like the feeling of coming to the corner after the restart and not having any control because the car lost pressure from cooling off.The tires will have less air in them than if you would have run them the old way. This is my opinion, I race on ovals and you may want to try them yourself. P.S. I think that the lower tire pressures affect the valve. They also tend to leak. Don Staggs M.I.R.A.M (mini-indy) From brianlm at erols.com Wed Mar 5 16:17:38 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: For Sale 1994 KBS Mk VII Message-ID: <199703052320.PAA21659@lists1.best.com> For IMMEDIATE Sale, car had a ground up last winter has had five races since. Comes with a spare set of mounted dries, mounted rains (both Hoosier). The car has a brand new Rotax in it and an AMW on the side (just to please everyone!). It has never been bent. Asking $10,000.00. If you or any one you know might be interested Please call or E-mail. Days 860-665-7216 Eve. 860-665-7856 E-mail Brianlm@erols.com From hiha at tfs.com Wed Mar 5 13:06:46 1997 From: hiha at tfs.com (Harry Iha) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: Thoughts on buying a F500 Message-ID: <199703052009.MAA03039@lists1.best.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1492 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://f500.org/pipermail/f500/attachments/19970305/c38ead25/attachment.ksh From f2000tab at cfanet.com Wed Mar 5 05:34:50 1997 From: f2000tab at cfanet.com (Tab McBlane) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:16 2006 Subject: what to use Message-ID: <199703052358.PAA27592@lists1.best.com> HI, we're just starting out this year in the f500 class and we will be taking the car to waterford hills mi. which has a very low db allowed. We were wondering if anyone could recommend what or how to pack the aaen pipes to quiet them down. send replys to f2000tab@cfanet.com thanks for your help. From f2000tab at cfanet.com Wed Mar 5 05:34:50 1997 From: f2000tab at cfanet.com (Tab McBlane) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: what to use Message-ID: <199703052358.PAA27592@lists1.best.com> HI, we're just starting out this year in the f500 class and we will be taking the car to waterford hills mi. which has a very low db allowed. We were wondering if anyone could recommend what or how to pack the aaen pipes to quiet them down. send replys to f2000tab@cfanet.com thanks for your help. From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Mar 5 17:58:36 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: what to use Message-ID: <199703060206.SAA00915@lists1.best.com> Hi Tab You must be running a Kawasaki. Aaen has replacement packing for the pipes. You can also use a shield or an elbow (pointing away from the db meter) on the end of the pipe if the sound readings are taken on only one side of the track. You can also use plain old pink fiberglass wraped with fiberglass cloth in an emergency. Mike KBS From brianlm at erols.com Wed Mar 5 20:04:06 1997 From: brianlm at erols.com (Brian Marren) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: FOR SALE 1994 KBS Mk VII Message-ID: <199703060311.TAA19756@lists1.best.com> For IMMEDIATE SALE.Mk VII ground up last winter. car comes with spare mounted dries, mounted rains (both Hoosier), a brand new Rotax in the car and an AMW on the side (both are complete ready to run)Digital dash w/2 EGT Asking $10,000.00. If interested please call day 860-665-7216 eve 860-665-7856 Email brianlm@erols.com From edc at remedy.com Thu Mar 6 08:51:05 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Rain Tires (was RE: Tire Pressures) Message-ID: <199703061549.HAA27671@lists1.best.com> Dillion asked about rain tires.... Hoosier and Goodyear both make rains for F500. I've used both. Personally I prefer the Hoosier, it performs better in very wet conditions. I've also made my own by taking a grooving iron to old slicks. These work pretty good as intermediate rains if it's just slightly wet, but you can't beat a purpose designed rain tire if there is standing water. As for the Yoko A008, yes, they are (or at least were) available in a 10" size, though it's a little narrower than what we usually run. They would probably be ok for an intermediate, but remember that they are radial tires and you might have to make drastic set-up changes to make it work. I've never tried 'em myself. One other note for KBS owners. KBS makes a set of rims specifically for the Hoosier rains, which are a little narrower than the standard slicks. I think you can run the rains on the standard wheel without any problems, but it's nice to have the right rims. ---- Eric D. Christensen Web Janitor Remedy Corporation edc@remedy.com (415) 903- 5244 http://www.remedy.com Oznog Motorsports edc@oznog.com (408) 223-8036 http://www.oznog.com From smundy at home.ifx.net Thu Mar 6 14:50:04 1997 From: smundy at home.ifx.net (S. Mundy) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: F500 Subscriber Message-ID: <199703062153.NAA07473@lists1.best.com> Eric, I've made several attempts to subscribe, but am not succeeding! Help!! Steve Mundy From staggs at marsweb.com Wed Mar 5 20:19:29 1997 From: staggs at marsweb.com (Don Staggs) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Rotax 500 Message-ID: <199703062151.NAA07146@lists1.best.com> I don't know how hard it is for some of you to get the 500 Rotax, but really the engine can be found and bought very easily. Here in Montana we have serious snomobile racers. I started looking for these engines for the last few days and I was very surprised with what I found. There are several racers here that bought new sleds and as soon as they get them home they yank out the engines and install big bore 800's 900's and even bigger ones than that. Then they sell the engines for very little. I have found them (never been run) from $1200.00 to $1500.00 with everything from the ign. to the pipes (complete!) Beleive it or not. Also the Rotax 500 is the most powerful thing in its class. They have been winning everything in the stock 500 class on thru the 600. I think that they will run circles around the 521's I know that they will. So those of you that will be running the 500 Rotax, get them babies tuned up and clutched cause you will dominate. Don Staggs 000 2nd ta' none! From robbrevs at sprynet.com Thu Mar 6 17:16:43 1997 From: robbrevs at sprynet.com (robbrevs@sprynet.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: F500 design parameters.. Message-ID: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> hiya Folks... I joined up this list a couple weeks ago and have been just reading and digesting things and thought I'd chime in with some techincal questions I have about F500 design... I kow the cars are little, but how little? what's the wheelbase on average for the currently competitve designs... and just what is the power to weight ratio, using wet weight with driver... what are the front and rear tire sizes? are they smaller, or the same as say, DSR? how big a galoot can you fit into an F500 cockpit?...;-) are all the rear end designs generally live axles located by four-bar and panhard or watts link? are both ends suspended with the ruber bisquits? what diameter is the roll hoop tubing? wall thickness? how does it compare in size to the frame tubing? is the steering rack and pinion, or go-kart style lever-and-tierod? that oughtta be enough for now huh? this inquiring mind wants to know!!! thanks, Robb Millett From staggs at marsweb.com Thu Mar 6 20:45:47 1997 From: staggs at marsweb.com (Don Staggs) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: 500 supply? Message-ID: <199703070249.SAA20289@lists1.best.com> I know a little bit about the 500 Rotax, as with the 521 Rotax. In all of the years that they built the 521, they made two models. The 534 and the 537 series. Both had the same bore and the same stroke. The difference was years made and the oil injection. We don't run the oil injection and both engines are almost the same. But rules require the same carbs and no changes to the engine. They have to have the same squish and the same compression. They also have the same stock rotorary valve. The engine does not know if it comes from snow country but the jetting and needle jets do. I don't think that you are going to buy a new factory built engine and it be ground or bored or stroked. Besides,if you buy an engine, you would get all of the specs on it before you purchased it anyway. I know that I would. Don Staggs just trying to help:-) From dillon.pyron at amd.com Fri Mar 7 07:38:08 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: F500 design parameters.. In-Reply-To: robbrevs@sprynet.com "F500 design parameters.." (Mar 6, 4:16pm) References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703071439.GAA26279@lists1.best.com> Actually, the best answer to these and the questions that come up next is the SCCA GCR and FCS (General Competition Rules and Formula Car Specifications). Makes a body appreciate just how sturdy these little cars are. -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 And next time, use a bigger needle From KBSENGR at aol.com Fri Mar 7 10:12:14 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: 500 supply? Message-ID: <199703071712.JAA09154@lists1.best.com> By the FCS the Rotax must be a Type 494 WITHOUT the R.A.V.E. valve. This motor has been used in Formula 500/Deluxe, Summit 500, Grand Tour. 500, & Formula M. Mike KBS From KBSENGR at aol.com Fri Mar 7 10:13:03 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: F500 design parameters.. Message-ID: <199703071713.JAA09772@lists1.best.com> Hi Robb By the GCR & FCS the max wheelbase is 80". With a car at spec weight of 800# with the driver, the power to weight is about 11# / hp. This is power to the ground NOT crankshaft horsepower. Crank hp to # is about 9# / hp. By FCS the wheels must be 10" with a max width of 8-1/2". Tires are max 7-1/2" designed width. Max driver size depends alot on how you are built. Real wide shoulders can cause a problem, anyone over about 6' 2" may have some problems. A general rule most designs are of some type of 4-link design. By FCS the rear axle MUST be one piece live axle of solid steel. By FCS max 2" dia by 1" thick rubber like isolators shall be used at each corner. By GCR front and rear rollbars shall be 1-3/8" dia min by .090 alloy or 1-1/2" dia min by .120 mild steel. We use rack and pinion. Mike KBS From pcronan at islc.net Fri Mar 7 19:29:15 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Rotax 500 In-Reply-To: <199703062151.NAA07146@lists1.best.com> References: <199703062151.NAA07146@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703080218.SAA24197@lists1.best.com> On Wed, 05 Mar 1997 19:19:29 -0800, you wrote: >I don't know how hard it is for some of you to get the 500 >Rotax, but really the engine can be found and bought very easily. Here >in Montana we have serious snomobile racers. I started looking for these >engines for the last few days and I was very surprised with what I >found. There are several racers here that bought new sleds and as soon >as they get them home they yank out the engines and install big bore >800's 900's and even bigger ones than that. Then they sell the engines >for very little. I have found them (never been run) from $1200.00 to >$1500.00 with everything from the ign. to the pipes (complete!) > Beleive it or not. > Also the Rotax 500 is the most powerful thing in its class. They >have been winning everything in the stock 500 class on thru the 600. I >think that they will run circles around the 521's I know that they will. > So those of you that will be running the 500 Rotax, get them >babies tuned up and clutched cause you will dominate. > Don Staggs 000 2nd ta' none! > Well Don I hate to disagree with you but here are the results and times for the March National held at Road Atlanta last week. POS Driver Car Best Lap Speed 1 Howell Jones III 95 KBSMK7-AMW 1:30.054 100.739 2 Wesley Wilfong 96 SWINDER-AMW 1:31.382 99.275 3 Scott Woodruff RED DEVIL-AMW 1:32.272 98.318 4 Tom Edwards 89 KBSMKV-AMW 1:32.376 98.207 5 Rusty Cook 90 KBSMKV-ROTAX 1:32.437 98.142 6 Jack Walbran 97 KBSMK8-ROTAX 1:34.452 96.048 7 Fred Edwards Jr KBSMK7-AMW 1:34:128 95:768 8 Greg Riehle 95 KBS-ROTAX 1:40.958 89.859 Margin of victory 23.514 Sec Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From staggs at marsweb.com Fri Mar 7 21:59:27 1997 From: staggs at marsweb.com (Don Staggs) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: AMW or ROTAX? Message-ID: <199703080406.UAA18483@lists1.best.com> Pat, New Engines need the bugs worked out of them. learning how to clutch them properly. And jetting. And don't forget that that takes time to learn. If you take that time from the set-up time then the set-up isn't perfect either. Show me the results at the end of the season and then you can raz me if I'm wrong. We also dynoed several of those engines and they range from 92 to 96 hp. I know they advertise 86 or something like that.( depending on elevation.) Don Staggs From pcronan at islc.net Sun Mar 9 19:48:59 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: AMW or ROTAX? In-Reply-To: <199703080406.UAA18483@lists1.best.com> References: <199703080406.UAA18483@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703100238.SAA00373@lists1.best.com> On Fri, 07 Mar 1997 20:59:27 -0800, you wrote: >Pat, > New Engines need the bugs worked out of them. learning how to >clutch them properly. And jetting. And don't forget that that takes time >to learn. If you take that time from the set-up time then the set-up >isn't perfect either. > Show me the results at the end of the season and then you can raz >me if I'm wrong. > We also dynoed several of those engines and they range from 92 to >96 hp. I know they advertise 86 or something like that.( depending on >elevation.) > Don Staggs > Don, With your permission I would like to forward your message to the SCCA. Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From jcook03 at emory.edu Sat Mar 8 22:30:14 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Rotax 500 References: <199703062151.NAA07146@lists1.best.com> <199703080218.SAA24197@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703100538.VAA02891@lists1.best.com> Pat Cronan wrote: > > > Well Don I hate to disagree with you but here are the results and times for the March National held > at Road Atlanta last week.... > Margin of victory 23.514 Sec > The one obvious point of these results is that the AMW engine doesn't need a different Y-pipe, eh? -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From jcook03 at emory.edu Sat Mar 8 22:50:02 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703100557.VAA08228@lists1.best.com> It's late so I'll make this short and give a more detailed narrative tomorrow, but I wanted to let everyone know how Savannah went. Once again it was a beautiful weekend with temps in the high 70's low 80's and clear skies. Howell had the pole with Scott Woodruff second and Rusty third. Neal Spieler, Chuck McAbee, Jack Walbran Greg Reiley and Paul Messick qualified 4th - 8th. Rusty got a good jump at the start and led through the first turn then Howell took the lead somewhere out of our site. On the second lap it was Howell, Rusty, and Scott nose to tail with the rest of the field about 20 seconds behind. Howell spun on the second or third lap which put Rusty in the lead with Scott right behind him and Howell about 6 seconds behind Scott. Rusty led the next 4 or 5 laps then let Scott by when his tires began blistering. Howell caught up and as Rusty had to back off because of tires Howell and Scott began and excellent battle for the lead which lasted until the third lap from the end when Scott spun going into turn 1. Howell won with Scott about 10 seconds behind and Rusty about 15 seconds behind Scott. Neal finished fourth, then Chuck McAbee, Jack, Gregg and Paul. We're beginning to get a feel for tuning the Rotax and Rusty's arm is slowly improving so that he can drive a little harder than he did last week-end, although by the end of the race he had a hard time getting out of the car because he couldn't push out with his arm. Finishing marquees: 1st KBS MKVII AMW Hoosier 2nd ScottWoodruff Special AMW Goodyear 3rd KBS MKV Rotax Goodyear 4th KBS MKVII Rotax Hoosier 5th KBS MKVII Rotax Hoosier 6th KBS MKVIII Rotax Hoosier 7th KBS MKVIII Rotax Hoosier 8th 85 Red Devil Kawasaki Hoosier -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From jcook03 at emory.edu Mon Mar 10 12:11:30 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> <199703100557.VAA08228@lists1.best.com> <19970310.124646.3039.0.FinanPlans@juno.com> Message-ID: <199703101830.KAA11285@lists1.best.com> bruce kapraszewski wrote: > > Rusty Cook in a ROTAX powered car???? That's interesting. About 3 months > ago you nearly chewed my head off for not being interested in purchasing > a car with an AMW motor and you unequivocally stated that Rusty would be > powered by AMW this season. No Bruce, I took heated offense with you for implying that I would sing the praises of AMW because we were trying to unload our AMW engines and parts on unsuspecting racers. As most of the regular National drivers in this country can tell you we don't have to unload equipment, as a matter of fact we can store every nut and bolt, engine, pipe and car that we have in stock and not have to 'unload' it. Rusty and I are fortunate in that respect, and believe me, we appreciate the ability to do that. We've put Rotax engines in the cars so that we know first hand which is the way to go. We are sending three of the five AMW's we have back to AMW this week to have the new crankshaft installed and the top end freshened up with matched cylinders and pistons. Whichever engine our car owner, Jack Walbran, decides we run is the engine we'll run. But then, Jack doesn't make those decisions without all three of us agreeing that we like the idea. One thing I can tell you without question is that _we do not feel that AMW is a bad engine_. Your argument against AMW was that you couldn't run a race week-end on the engine. I told you that we didn't have those problems with the AMW engines, and we didn't. You said we were either luckier than most, had more time time to work on the engines than most, or were trying to unload the AMW stock that we have. I responded that we were just better than most. (That was as close as I came to chewing your head off, btw. You'll know when I chew your head off, just ask around). The fact of the matter is, that there are quite a few teams around the country that don't have problems with the AMW engines. Granted, these are teams with mechanics working on the cars, people who understand true racing engines as opposed to production engines. I'll admit that the idea of F500 was that you didn't have to be a master mechanic to run in the class....but the bottom line is, with care and attention to detail, you an make an AMW last, you can make an AMW run fast and AMW is a good engine. Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From finanplans at juno.com Mon Mar 10 13:46:44 1997 From: finanplans at juno.com (bruce kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> <199703100557.VAA08228@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703101748.JAA24908@lists1.best.com> Rusty Cook in a ROTAX powered car???? That's interesting. About 3 months ago you nearly chewed my head off for not being interested in purchasing a car with an AMW motor and you unequivocally stated that Rusty would be powered by AMW this season. I guess Rusty is the one who fortunately makes the decisions. Have you ever thought of taking up bull...fighting? Best wishes to Rusty and his ROTAX. On Sun, 09 Mar 1997 00:50:02 -0500 Julie Cook writes: >It's late so I'll make this short and give a more detailed narrative >tomorrow, but I wanted to let everyone know how Savannah went. Once >again it was a beautiful weekend with temps in the high 70's low 80's >and clear skies. Howell had the pole with Scott Woodruff second and >Rusty third. Neal Spieler, Chuck McAbee, Jack Walbran Greg Reiley and >Paul Messick qualified 4th - 8th. Rusty got a good jump at the start >and >led through the first turn then Howell took the lead somewhere out of >our site. On the second lap it was Howell, Rusty, and Scott nose to >tail >with the rest of the field about 20 seconds behind. Howell spun on the >second or third lap which put Rusty in the lead with Scott right >behind >him and Howell about 6 seconds behind Scott. Rusty led the next 4 or 5 >laps then let Scott by when his tires began blistering. Howell caught >up >and as Rusty had to back off because of tires Howell and Scott began >and >excellent battle for the lead which lasted until the third lap from >the >end when Scott spun going into turn 1. Howell won with Scott about 10 >seconds behind and Rusty about 15 seconds behind Scott. Neal finished >fourth, then Chuck McAbee, Jack, Gregg and Paul. > >We're beginning to get a feel for tuning the Rotax and Rusty's arm is >slowly improving so that he can drive a little harder than he did last >week-end, although by the end of the race he had a hard time getting >out >of the car because he couldn't push out with his arm. Finishing >marquees: > >1st KBS MKVII AMW Hoosier >2nd ScottWoodruff Special AMW Goodyear >3rd KBS MKV Rotax Goodyear >4th KBS MKVII Rotax Hoosier >5th KBS MKVII Rotax Hoosier >6th KBS MKVIII Rotax Hoosier >7th KBS MKVIII Rotax Hoosier >8th 85 Red Devil Kawasaki Hoosier > >-- >Julie Cook >Fine Line Racing >http://userwww.service.emory/~jcook03/flr.html > >"There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing >and motor racing. The rest are merely games." > -Ernest Hemingway > From finanplans at juno.com Mon Mar 10 16:30:53 1997 From: finanplans at juno.com (bruce kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> <33245CE2.EA9@emory.edu> Message-ID: <199703102034.MAA02582@lists1.best.com> Julie, I think you summed it up quite nicely: with an AMW, one really needs to have an experienced professional at the track to work on the engine. This wasn't a problem with the Kawasaki, and from what I've been told by my snowmobiling friends, it won't be a problem with the Rotax either. Let's remember that the F5 Class is meant to be for entry-level, weekend warrior types lacking professional budgets. Requiring a trackside professional staff for one's motor kind of misses the point of being "entry-level", don't you think? >From my research and personal observation, the AMW motor has proven to be consistently inconsistent. Perhaps with the changes being allowed this will no longer be the case. However, I haven't found anyone running an AMW motor who will defend their choice of powerplant when confronted PRIVATELY, even with the rule changes in mind. Now here you are just a few short months after trying to sell me an AMW powered car, and being so adamant about the virtues of the AMW, singing a different tune, running a car powered by Rotax. Defend this as I'm sure you will try, but actions speak louder than words. No doubt you've made the right choice by going with the Rotax, and having read about Rusty's talent's I'm sure he'll be collecting his share of checkered flags, with the added benefit of not requiring his engine to be rebuilt between practice sessions. BK from julie cook: >The fact of the matter is, that there are quite a few teams around the country that >don't have problems with the AMW engines. Granted, these are teams >with mechanics working on the cars, people who understand true racing >engines as opposed to production engines. I'll admit that the idea of F500 was >that you didn't have to be a master mechanic to run in the class....but >the bottom line is, with care and attention to detail, you an make an AMW last, you >can make an AMW run fast and AMW is a good engine. > > >Julie Cook >Fine Line Racing >http://userwww.service.emory/~jcook03/flr.html > >"There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing >and motor racing. The rest are merely games." > -Ernest Hemingway > From dillon.pyron at amd.com Mon Mar 10 14:20:13 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National In-Reply-To: finanplans@juno.com (bruce kapraszewski) "Re: Savannah National" (Mar 10, 3:30pm) References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> <33245CE2.EA9@emory.edu> <199703102034.MAA02582@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703102122.NAA17849@lists1.best.com> On Mar 10, 3:30pm, bruce kapraszewski wrote: > Subject: Re: Savannah National > Julie, > > I think you summed it up quite nicely: with an AMW, one really needs to > have an experienced professional at the track to work on the engine. > This wasn't a problem with the Kawasaki, and from what I've been told by > my snowmobiling friends, it won't be a problem with the Rotax either. > Let's remember that the F5 Class is meant to be for entry-level, weekend > warrior types lacking professional budgets. Requiring a trackside > professional staff for one's motor kind of misses the point of > being "entry-level", don't you think? Five years ago, FV was considered an "entry-level" class. Yet almost no one built their own motor. > > >From my research and personal observation, the AMW motor has proven to > be consistently inconsistent. Perhaps with the changes being allowed > this will no longer be the case. However, I haven't found anyone > running an AMW motor who will defend their choice of powerplant when > confronted PRIVATELY, even with the rule changes in mind. > > Now here you are just a few short months after trying to sell me an AMW > powered car, and being so adamant about the virtues of the AMW, > singing a different tune, running a car powered by Rotax. Defend > this as I'm sure you will try, but actions speak louder than words. No > doubt you've made the right choice by going with the Rotax, and having > read about Rusty's talent's I'm sure he'll be collecting his share of > checkered flags, with the added benefit of not requiring his engine to > be rebuilt between practice sessions. I seem to remember them listing both cars with or without the AMW. And the price differential was about that of a new engine of one's choice. A little too, pricey for me, but not, I think, overpriced. Comeing from a racing culture (drag racing) where engine rebuilds between rounds are normal, I just shrug and say yeah. I'd probably do the same with the Rotax or even the Kaw. Why go out with an engine you're not 100% sure of? > > BK > > from julie cook: > >The fact of the matter is, that there are quite a few teams around the > country that > >don't have problems with the AMW engines. Granted, these are teams > >with mechanics working on the cars, people who understand true racing > >engines as opposed to production engines. I'll admit that the idea of > F500 was > >that you didn't have to be a master mechanic to run in the class....but > >the bottom line is, with care and attention to detail, you an make an > AMW last, you >can make an AMW run fast and AMW is a good engine. > > > > > >Julie Cook > >Fine Line Racing > >http://userwww.service.emory/~jcook03/flr.html > > > >"There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing > >and motor racing. The rest are merely games." > > -Ernest Hemingway > > >-- End of excerpt from bruce kapraszewski -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 And next time, use a bigger needle From smundy at home.ifx.net Mon Mar 10 17:31:36 1997 From: smundy at home.ifx.net (S. Mundy) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Introduction Message-ID: <199703110034.QAA28206@lists1.best.com> Hi. I'm Steve Mundy. I'm new to this page, the internet and F500 in general. I first learned about F440 at a test and tune day at Road Atlanta Oct 95 held by Grassroots Motorsports Magazine. I was extremely interested from the start. I've always had an interest in formula racing, but could not see how to afford it. I have an extensive background in 2 strokes (read as motocross bikes) By the way I'm a 40 yr old reliability engineer in North Augusta, SC. I immediately joined SCCA. I found an ad in the back of SportsCar from someone close to home and sought their guidance to the class. That was Howell Jone. Howell was kind enough to bring me in as crew to a few races to show me the ropes. Thanks Howell!!! I was there last year at Road Atlanta to see the misshap with Howell, Scott and Neil. Bummer!! Since then, I attended drivers school at Moroso, where I rented an 86 Zink Z-19 from Fred Froelich. Fred did an excellent job as I did not miss a single lap the entire weekend. I will be going to my second school at Dayton on April 12 and again renting from Fred. I believe this is a car that was previously owned by Jim Elder. Man do these cars have BRAKES!! I'm not sure, but I believe my times at the end of the weekend were 1:34's with worn-out brakes. One thing that really impressed me about the class is the commoradery in the class. Everyone is willing to help anyone else at the drop of a hat. Hence, I've found a home. I hope to purchase my own car in the near future. Probably something inexpensive and reliable to get me through my required regionals. Anyone got a good one they'd trade or deal for a really nice 65 Corvair (valued at around $3700)?? See you at the races!! Steve From jcook03 at emory.edu Mon Mar 10 18:08:59 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> <33245CE2.EA9@emory.edu> <19970310.153056.4415.3.FinanPlans@juno.com> Message-ID: <199703110130.RAA29648@lists1.best.com> To the members of this list: Several months ago, Mr. Kapraszewski and I got into a volley of e-mail messages regarding AMW versus Rotax. It soon became obvious to me that Mr. Kapraszewski had his mind set against AMW and was unwilling to listen to anything positive about the engine, therefore, I chose to ignore future private e-mail messages from him. When I felt he attacked me in this public forum today I felt the need to defend our decision to put a Rotax in our cars. I did that. In the future, I will not respond to any messages from Mr. Kapraszewski either in defense of decisions made on our team or of 2SI. For the record, our relationship with 2SI and the AMW engine is very positive and we support them and anyone who wishes to run the 2SI engines. Although I may tease Pat from time to time, we will be among those who support any changes 2SI wishes to request from SCCA. -- Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From Ademir at webtv.net Mon Mar 10 16:29:10 1997 From: Ademir at webtv.net (Ademir Fedumenti) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National Message-ID: <199703102330.PAA00087@lists1.best.com> Bruce, here is one f500 driver who will defend AMW in PRIVATE or in public at any time. In 96 I did 17 races (5 nationals,11 regionals and the runoffs) plus 2 test days, and NEVER had a single engine related failure, not even a bad spark plug or a leak anywhere. The PREVENTIVE maintenance consisted of 2 sets of pistons and rings , a water pump belt and plugs, for the whole YEAR and I did it all myself. I used common sense by watching the EGTs and water temps and not overreving the engine. Pat and Howell at AMW have allways been very helpfull with all my questions. By the way my motor had already been used at the 95 runoffs when I got it. If you have any questions feel free to contact me, in the mailing list or in PRIVATE, my e-mail is above. Thank you. PS. Julie has chewed my head off before and I can tell you that you got off easy :)) From pcronan at islc.net Mon Mar 10 20:09:27 1997 From: pcronan at islc.net (Pat Cronan) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National In-Reply-To: <199703110130.RAA29648@lists1.best.com> References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> <33245CE2.EA9@emory.edu> <19970310.153056.4415.3.FinanPlans@juno.com> <199703110130.RAA29648@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703110259.SAA17894@lists1.best.com> On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:08:59 -0500, you wrote: >To the members of this list: > >Several months ago, Mr. Kapraszewski and I got into a volley of e-mail >messages regarding AMW versus Rotax. It soon became obvious to me that >Mr. Kapraszewski had his mind set against AMW and was unwilling to >listen to anything positive about the engine, therefore, I chose to >ignore future private e-mail messages from him. When I felt he attacked >me in this public forum today I felt the need to defend our decision to >put a Rotax in our cars. I did that. In the future, I will not respond >to any messages from Mr. Kapraszewski either in defense of decisions >made on our team or of 2SI. > >For the record, our relationship with 2SI and the AMW engine is very >positive and we support them and anyone who wishes to run the 2SI >engines. Although I may tease Pat from time to time, we will be among >those who support any changes 2SI wishes to request from SCCA. > > >-- >Julie Cook >Fine Line Racing >http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html > Let me backup what Julie is saying. Julie and Rusty have ALWAYS been supportive in what we at 2si are doing with the AMW engine. If anyone thinks that when I am writting on this E-mail list in reply to Julie's message is in anyway adversial then they are dead WRONG. Julie was the one who even told me about this E-mail list and forwarded messages from the list to me before I joined it myself. At the race last weekend Rusty was giving Howell some helpful pointers on his tires when Howell was talking to him after the race about some handling problems he was having. In case anyone dosen't know where I work, most of you know me but there are a few names on this mailing list that I don't reconize, I am the Sales Manager for the AMW Cuyuna Engine Company doing business as 2si. I just wish Julie would take those railroad spikes out of the 2x4's that she hits me in the head with when she is trying to make her point . Pat Cronan -- Where am I?...Why is it so hot?...And what am I doing in this handbasket From f2000tab at cfanet.com Tue Mar 11 06:02:05 1997 From: f2000tab at cfanet.com (Tab McBlane) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Raceboard Message-ID: <199703111154.DAA19095@lists1.best.com> Hi all, we have put up a race board for formula racing where you may also post questions and results or answer someone elses. the address is http://webtech-ohio.com/raceboard.html if anyone is interested in addition to this mailing list come on in. Thanks. On another note with our f500 we purchased can someone shed some light on whether you have to hand mount or disassemble the wheels on the f500's we tried to get on machine mounted with disasterous results. From finanplans at juno.com Tue Mar 11 08:31:45 1997 From: finanplans at juno.com (bruce kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National References: <199703102330.PAA00087@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703111235.EAA15909@lists1.best.com> re. message below. You are one of the few, the proud, and the brave. Best wishes for a successful 1997 season. BK On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:29:10 -0500 Ademir@webtv.net (Ademir Fedumenti) writes: >Bruce, here is one f500 driver who will defend AMW in PRIVATE or in >public at any time. In 96 I did 17 races (5 nationals,11 regionals and >the runoffs) plus 2 test days, and NEVER had a single engine related >failure, not even a bad spark plug or a leak anywhere. The PREVENTIVE >maintenance consisted of 2 sets of pistons and rings , a water pump >belt >and plugs, for the whole YEAR and I did it all myself. I used common >sense by watching the EGTs and water temps and not overreving the >engine. Pat and Howell at AMW have allways been very helpfull with all >my questions. By the way my motor had already been used at the 95 >runoffs when I got it. If you have any questions feel free to contact >me, in the mailing list or in PRIVATE, my e-mail is above. Thank you. >PS. Julie has chewed my head off before and I can tell you that you >got >off easy :)) > From finanplans at juno.com Tue Mar 11 08:30:14 1997 From: finanplans at juno.com (bruce kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National References: <199703070016.QAA10370@lists1.best.com> <199703110130.RAA29648@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703111237.EAA16737@lists1.best.com> Hi Julie, First, you really do take things much too seriously. Chill out! Second, I hope you were serious about not responding to my e-mail again. Thank you. Finally, good luck with your R O T A X :-) BK From finanplans at juno.com Tue Mar 11 08:21:21 1997 From: finanplans at juno.com (bruce kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National References: <199703102329.PAA29992@mailtod-102.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: <199703111234.EAA14831@lists1.best.com> Hi Ademir, Nice to hear from you again. You may want to read my reply to Julie once again. I did say I couldn't find anyone who, when asked PRIVATELY, would defend their AMW choice. This forum is hardly what I would call private. Despite your product loyalty, the fact remains that the AMW power plant has established a track record of unreliability. Given this record, anyone who would NOW consciously purchase an AMW motor when a reliable, competitive alternative is available just hasn't done their homework. For your sake, and for all those others stuck having to defend AMW, I truly hope that recent rules changes will improve your motor's reliability. It's much more fun to be racing than to be rebuilding. Ciao for now. BK From edc at remedy.com Tue Mar 11 12:09:43 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Enough engine wars ( was: RE: Savannah National) Message-ID: <199703111907.LAA14339@lists1.best.com> OK, I've kept quiet up to now, but come on folks... let's cut the religious wars regarding AMW vs. Rotax. Friendly debates over the merits and problems of the engines is one thing, but this has gone beyond friendly debating. Some of the comments are getting awfully close to being personal attacks, which have no place on a public forum. Both of these engines are good racing engines. Each has it's strong points and it's weak points. You can hardly fault anyone for running either engine. Personally, I'm perfectly happy with my AMW engines. This is the 3rd season I've run with them and found them to be very reliable, though you do have to maintain them correctly. But that is the case with any race motor. I haven't run a Rotax myself, but I've worked on a few of them that are in other folk's cars. It's a fine engine and will suit the class well, I'm sure. But I don't believe that it's the definitive engine for the class any more than I believe the AMW is. As far as having a engine man in your pits, I don't. Never have and never will. I've had exactly one engine professionally built in six years. It was a Kawasaki and self distructed with less than an hour of running time. When I started with F440s I didn't even know how a 2 stroke worked. But sure enough, I burned down a piston in my Kawasaki during driver's school (due to ignorance, I'm sure) and had to do my first top end with nothing but a handful of cheap tools and the belief that if I put it back together that same way I took it apart, it might run when I was done. It did. I've since learned a fair amount about 2 stroke engines. I'm no expert, but I do 100% of my own engine work (with the exception of crankshaft repairs.... I send my cranks to a specialist... or in the case of the AMW, to the factory). I did it on the Kawasaki, I do it on the AMW, and if I ever run the Rotax, I'll do it on them too. It's not difficult to service a 2 stroke engine, and frankly I have no pity for the guys who don't want to spend the time to learn how to maintain their race engines. Even the Rotax, which looks like it'll be very reliable, is going to have to be maintained. I guess a significant benefit to the Rotax is that you can take it to your local snowmobile shop for service if you don't want to do your own work. I'm sometime amused by people who expect their race cars to just go and go and go without even taking the thing off the trailer between races. Race cars require careful and constant care and feeding to be reliable and competitive. The F500 is the lowest maintenance race car I've ever owned, but they still require attention. If you're not willing to put the shop time in, then you shouldn't even consider buying your own race car. There are plenty of "arrive and drive" rentals out there for you. Anyway, this is awfully long winded, and I apologize for going on and on. Going forward, let's just accept that everyone doesn't have the same goals, ideals, skills or interests and that means that everyone has a different view of the world. There is no need to counterpunch every time somebody makes a comment that you don't personally agree with. If you do feel the need to debate a point, please do it in a civil manner, and preferably do it offline with the individual(s) involved, not on the public forum. ---- Eric D. Christensen Web Janitor Remedy Corporation edc@remedy.com (415) 903- 5244 http://www.remedy.com Oznog Motorsports edc@oznog.com (408) 223-8036 http://www.oznog.com From KBSENGR at aol.com Tue Mar 11 16:16:42 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: AMW vs Rotax Message-ID: <199703112318.PAA24425@lists1.best.com> We have been involved in F-5 (F-440) since 1979 and have always been amazed by how people who have just recently started or are not even involved, become raving experts about the class in such a short time. If Kawasaki would have been interested in building motors there would been no need for another make. None of the snowmobile engine manufacturers was interested in the low numbers of engines. Andy Allen of AMW was the only person willing to step up to the plate and build a motor for us. Due to some manufacturing QC problems incured by AMW during their move, mis-communications between AMW and SCCA, SCCA's stubborness, end users who would destroy an anvil with a tack hammer, and some self promoting individuals in and outside of the class, the Rotax came to be in F-5. MY personal choice for a motor is the AMW even though the Rotax is 3-5 hp stronger (with our exhaust system mods) at this point in time. When we did campaign a car in 96 we had AMW's and had very very little trouble. The AMW has the potential of being a very strong motor if SCCA will continue to co-operate with 2SI. We are not campaigning our own FACTORY CAR this year but are assisting a customer who comes from snowmobile and go-cart racing and prefers the Rotax due to his many years of involvement with them. We have known Tony Murphy (494 importer) for many years and we have always had a good working relationship with him. We still have a good working relationship with AMW/2SI. We offer both motor packages in our cars and will continue to do so as long as both are available and competitive. We will continue to develope packages for both motors to the best of our ability. Like Julie, we see no reason why these two motors can't co-exist in the same shop, same team and same series peacefully and competitively. Mike From finanplans at juno.com Tue Mar 11 22:02:39 1997 From: finanplans at juno.com (bruce kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Savannah National) References: <199703111907.LAA14339@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703120209.SAA11089@lists1.best.com> Dear Eric, I believe that I'm one of the parties about whom you spoke. My apologies for having taken some personal issues to task on your public forum. I will make doubly sure that any future mail which may be construed as a "personal debate" does not have your forum's mail address in the "cc:" of my mailer. BK On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:09:43 -0800 Eric Christensen writes: > >OK, I've kept quiet up to now, but come on folks... let's cut the = >religious wars regarding AMW vs. Rotax. Friendly debates over the >merits = >and problems of the engines is one thing, but this has gone beyond = >friendly debating. Some of the comments are getting awfully close to = >being personal attacks, which have no place on a public forum. > >Both of these engines are good racing engines. Each has it's strong = >points and it's weak points.=20 >You can hardly fault anyone for running either engine.=20 > >Personally, I'm perfectly happy with my AMW engines. This is the 3rd = >season I've run with them and found them to be very reliable, though >you = >do have to maintain them correctly. But that is the case with any race >= >motor. I haven't run a Rotax myself, but I've worked on a few of them >= >that are in other folk's cars. It's a fine engine and will suit the = >class well, I'm sure. But I don't believe that it's the definitive = >engine for the class any more than I believe the AMW is.=20 > >As far as having a engine man in your pits, I don't. Never have and = >never will. I've had exactly one engine professionally built in six = >years. It was a Kawasaki and self distructed with less than an hour of >= >running time. When I started with F440s I didn't even know how a 2 = >stroke worked. But sure enough, I burned down a piston in my Kawasaki >= >during driver's school (due to ignorance, I'm sure) and had to do my = >first top end with nothing but a handful of cheap tools and the belief >= >that if I put it back together that same way I took it apart, it might >= >run when I was done. It did. > >I've since learned a fair amount about 2 stroke engines. I'm no >expert, = >but I do 100% of my own engine work (with the exception of crankshaft >= >repairs.... I send my cranks to a specialist... or in the case of the >= >AMW, to the factory). I did it on the Kawasaki, I do it on the AMW, >and = >if I ever run the Rotax, I'll do it on them too. It's not difficult to >= >service a 2 stroke engine, and frankly I have no pity for the guys who >= >don't want to spend the time to learn how to maintain their race = >engines. Even the Rotax, which looks like it'll be very reliable, is = >going to have to be maintained. I guess a significant benefit to the = >Rotax is that you can take it to your local snowmobile shop for >service = >if you don't want to do your own work.=20 > >I'm sometime amused by people who expect their race cars to just go >and = >go and go without even taking the thing off the trailer between races. >= >Race cars require careful and constant care and feeding to be reliable >= >and competitive. The F500 is the lowest maintenance race car I've ever >= >owned, but they still require attention. If you're not willing to put >= >the shop time in, then you shouldn't even consider buying your own >race = >car. There are plenty of "arrive and drive" rentals out there for you. > >Anyway, this is awfully long winded, and I apologize for going on and >= >on. Going forward, let's just accept that everyone doesn't have the >same = >goals, ideals, skills or interests and that means that everyone has a >= >different view of the world. There is no need to counterpunch every >time = >somebody makes a comment that you don't personally agree with. If you >do = >feel the need to debate a point, please do it in a civil manner, and = >preferably do it offline with the individual(s) involved, not on the = >public forum.=20 > >---- >Eric D. Christensen Web Janitor >Remedy Corporation edc@remedy.com (415) 903- 5244 = >http://www.remedy.com >Oznog Motorsports edc@oznog.com (408) 223-8036 = >http://www.oznog.com > > From KBSENGR at aol.com Wed Mar 12 10:11:54 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Raceboard Message-ID: <199703121715.JAA06537@lists1.best.com> Hi Tab, I don't know what brands of tires and wheels you are using. I assume you are using either Goodyear or Hoosier tires. Either of those tire dealers, especially those who go to the track, should be able to mount and dismount the 10" tires and wheels. Most commercial tire stores will not have a clue as to how to mount and dismount the small aluminum wheels without destroying them. The trick is to NOT use the bottom shoe on the older tire machines. You can also mount and dismount your own tires and wheels, with a manual bead breaker and set of tire spoons, and a little knowhow. Sandy KBS Engineering From pfsvt at vermontel.com Wed Mar 12 17:57:13 1997 From: pfsvt at vermontel.com (Bruce Kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Big brother Message-ID: <199703122159.NAA08101@lists1.best.com> Anyone interested in keeping tabs on F-5's Big Brother (F-1) can do so via the following excellent page: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/Members/stephen.baines From thlavin at cybergate.net Wed Mar 12 17:29:34 1997 From: thlavin at cybergate.net (Tom Hlavin) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: FW: Try this... Message-ID: <199703130037.QAA16573@lists1.best.com> I'm not kidding. This really works. FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS EXACTLY! Scroll down one line at a time and DO NOT READ AHEAD! I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH! DO NOT SKIP AHEAD! Read this message ONE LINE AT A TIME and just do what it says. You will be glad you did. If not, you'll feel like an idiot and wish you had listened. DIRECTIONS 1) pick a number from 1-9 2) subtract 5 3) multiply by 3 4) square the resulting number (multiply the number by itself--not find the square root) 5) add the digits until you get only one digit (i.e. 64= 6+4= 10= 1+0=1) 6) if the number is less than 5, add five. Otherwise subtract 4. 7) multiply by 2 8) subtract 6 9) map the digit to a letter in the alphabet 1=A, 2=B, 3=C, etc... 10) pick a name of a country that begins with that letter 11) take the second letter in the country name and think of an animal that begins with that letter 12) think of the color of that animal (keep scrolling) ******************************************************************* DO NOT SCROLL DOWN UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE ALL OF THE ABOVE! ******************************************************************* Here it comes, NO CHEATING or you'll be sorry. You have a grey elephant from Denmark. From JC7948 at aol.com Thu Mar 13 09:29:37 1997 From: JC7948 at aol.com (JC7948@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Form Response Message-ID: <199703131640.IAA09895@lists1.best.com> @A From dillon.pyron at amd.com Thu Mar 13 07:59:54 1997 From: dillon.pyron at amd.com (Dillon Pyron) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Big brother In-Reply-To: Bruce Kapraszewski "Big brother" (Mar 12, 4:57pm) References: <199703122159.NAA08101@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703131503.HAA28987@lists1.best.com> On Mar 12, 4:57pm, Bruce Kapraszewski wrote: > Subject: Big brother > Anyone interested in keeping tabs on F-5's Big Brother (F-1) can do so > via the following excellent page: > > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/Members/stephen.baines > >-- End of excerpt from Bruce Kapraszewski Hey, I thought 5 was bigger than 1. That would make F5 F1's big brother :-) -- dillon pyron dillon.pyron@amd.com PADI OWSI-54909 USPSA TY-26031 Anyone who is willing to take second place has never been in a duel From pfsvt at vermontel.com Fri Mar 14 19:19:10 1997 From: pfsvt at vermontel.com (Bruce Kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Clutching phase of race car setup. Message-ID: <199703150020.QAA14602@lists1.best.com> O.K. all of you F5 race hardened veterans out there, we've heard about engine selection and tire pressures relative to car setup. Would any of you care to enlighten us newcomer's and interested fans as to the art of selecting the proper clutch springs for a race setup? ie, how many variations are there? What variables impact on your decision? Etc. Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks. From edc at oznog.com Sun Mar 16 21:02:45 1997 From: edc at oznog.com (Eric D. Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Looking for Kawasaki engined KBS cars for export Message-ID: <199703170424.UAA05755@lists1.best.com> A friend of mine is looking for reasonably priced Kawasaki powered KBS cars to import to the Phillipines. He's an ex-F440 racer who was transfered there by his company a couple years back. Evidently they have a couple tracks and have built up quite a bit of interest on the part of the tracks in getting F500 racing going over there. Two cars have already been shipped over, and they are looking for a few more reasonably priced used cars. If you happen to have one that you'd like to sell, or hear of any among your local racers, here's a good change to sell them. I'm not sure of all the gorey details, but if you have a car, or know of one that might fit the bill, call Don Clar at (510) 939-8067. He's making all of the arrangements stateside on behalf of the my friend Jim Johnson in the Phillipines and acting as Jim's agent. From KBSENGR at aol.com Mon Mar 17 10:21:16 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Phoenix Nat/Regional Message-ID: <199703171722.JAA20233@lists1.best.com> Beautiful, sunny, low 90"s. A typical Spring day in Phoenix. Saturday, Regional qualifying, 1st Nat qual., and regional race Qual Regional Nat 1 Kurt Jechel KBS MK-8/Rot 01:01:018 1:01.984 2 Sandra Popescue Van Dieman RF-85 01:02.724 1:01.669 3 Bill Bielharz Legrand MK-21 01:03.101 4 Sharon Lopardo KBS MK-7/ROT 01:03.680 1:04.349 5 Steve Lenzmeir MP-15 (CF) 01:04.523 6 Joe Martin Swift DB-1 01:06.082 1:05.131 7 Mark Shillingburg Crossle 45 01:07.812 8 Kim Shepard PRS 82F 01:07.875 1:02.626 9 Rob Wallschlaeger Lazier MKII 01:08.071 1:08.127 10 Don Hewitt Caracal D 01:08.116 1:07.375 11 Gene Peterson GDP 01:11.827 1:12.412 12 Will Hartje Lola T342 01:11.958 13 David Jackson 84 Red Devil/Kaw 01:12.081 14 Lynn Heaps Zink C-4 01:17.370 Regional Race 1 Sandra Popescu FF 1:01.620 2 Kurt Jechel F5 1:01.794 (new track record) 3 Bill Bielharz CF 1:03.432 4 Steve Lenzmeir CF 1:04.498 5 Joe Martin FF 1:03.264 6 Sharon Lopardo F5 1:04.031 7 Kim Shepard SF 1:07.256 8 Rob Wallschleager FV 1:07.998 9 Mark Shillingburg SF 1:07.181 10 David Jackson F5 1:07.602 11 Gene Peterson FV 1:12.734 12 Will Hartje CF 1:12.354 13 Lynn Heaps FV 1:18.608 14 Don Hewitt FV 1:08.468 National Race Sunday Race Qual 1 FF Swift DB-1 1:01.030 1:00.172 2 FF Swift DB-1 1:00.868 1:00.837 3 FF PRS 84-F 1:03.245 1:02.826 4 F5 KBS MK-7/Rot 1:04.180 1:04.349 Sharon Lopardo 5 FV BRM MKIII 1:07.682 1:06.419 6 FV Caracal D 1:07.060 1:07.375 7 FV Glandring 1:07.715 1:07.348 8 F5 Red Devil 1:08.100 1:07.519 David Jackson 9 FV 84 Dart 1:08.901 1:07.474 10 FF Swift DB-1 1:04.058 1:05.131 11 FV GDP 1:12.989 1:12.412 12 F5 KBS MK-8/Rot 1:01.963 (NTR) 1:01.984 Kurt Jechel 13 FV 90 Sharland 1:06.500 1:07.034 Kurt was 3rd overall in the Nat. race when he had a flat tire. Only lost 5 laps with a tire change. I don't think we are ready to take on the NASCAR tire changers yet. Phoenix maintains seperate track records for both Nat & Reg, Kurt now has them both. Sharon had a rough weekend 2 crashes, brake problems, new track but did very well. It was fun watching her out run the FF's on the straight. Mike From pfsvt at vermontel.com Tue Mar 18 20:10:19 1997 From: pfsvt at vermontel.com (Bruce Kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: For sale Message-ID: <199703190018.QAA22064@lists1.best.com> 1988 Red Devil T-88 with Kawasaki. 1991 NERRC champ car. Garaged since, after rebuild. 802-297-3641 for details. From Mike.Penland at DANA.COM Wed Mar 19 15:30:32 1997 From: Mike.Penland at DANA.COM (Mike.Penland@DANA.COM) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Bent Wheels Message-ID: <199703192249.OAA05719@lists1.best.com> Luckily, I got a spare set of wheels when I purchased my F-500. Unluckily, three out of four are roughly egg shaped. Does anyone have a good source for straightening damaged 10" wheels ? I've spoken to local companies but they can only go as far down as 12" rims. I would prefer someone in the Midwest. If no one can straighten them, is there a good source for new/used wheels in the Midwest ? From KBSENGR at aol.com Mon Mar 24 08:53:11 1997 From: KBSENGR at aol.com (KBSENGR@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: F440 New gearing Message-ID: <199703241607.IAA24883@lists1.best.com> Gearing for the Rotax??? around 3.2-1 for most tracks @ 7700 rpm From smundy at home.ifx.net Mon Mar 24 17:20:22 1997 From: smundy at home.ifx.net (S. Mundy) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Sponsorship Message-ID: <199703250023.QAA14391@lists1.best.com> I will be entering the regional circuit very soon and have a question about sponsorship. I have several potential sponsors, but am unsure as to the most appropriate way to operate. Do most people incorporate as a non-profit organization? Operate as an advertising agency? I'm looking for ideas. Bottom line is I want to stay out of trouble with the IRS! Been there, done that! Ya know what I mean Vern? Thanks in advance. Steve From jcook03 at emory.edu Mon Mar 24 21:03:05 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Memphis Message-ID: <199703250426.UAA05365@lists1.best.com> Yet another beautiful weekend at the race track! The temps on Friday were in the 70's with a clear sky. We tested on Friday and generally enjoyed a beautiful day with friends. Mid-West Division races are always Regional/Nationals and we run with FV's and FFs. On Saturday's Regional race there were 6 Fords, 6 F500's, and 5 FV's. Rusty qualified third overall with a 1:12.288 with Tom Edwards right beside him with a 1:13.430. There were two Fords then Scott Woodruff qualified with a 1:15.589 and Jack Walbran next with a qualifying time of 1:16.687. The two kawasaki powered cars of George Hedge (KBS MK3)(1:25.700) and Steve Smith (KBS MKV)(failed to qualify) were having problems with their cars and qualifyed 13th and 15th. When the green flag fell Rusty outpowered the Fords into the first turn and led the first three laps of the race. When he came around in the lead on the first lap he yelled into the radio 'Yahoo' and truly enjoyed leading the Fords. On the third lap the lead Ford followed Rusty into Turn 1 and Rusty had some concerns about the Ford driver's ability to make the turn so Rusty backed off and let the Ford take the lead, but Rusty stayed close behind him the entire race (margin of victory 4.545 seconds). Jack was racing with two Fords, FF in front and a CFF behind him. Tom couldn't see Rusty and didn't see Jack and slowed down until the third lap from the end when he saw the flames on the nose of Jack's car and realized his mistake. Jack caught up with Tom on the last lap and when they came off the last turn they were side by side and we were able to get a good comparison of the AMW engine versus the Rotax engine with the the KBS modified Rotax pipes. They both ran side by side down the 1/4 mile dragstrip until they passed the checker about 1/2 down the dragstrip with Tom a nose ahead of Jack. Jack needed an additional 20 feet to pull in front of Tom, but it wasn't to be. Scott, who had hit something and torn up body work finished three Fords behind Jack, Steve Smith only ran 1 lap and George Hedge didn't start. Rusty set a new track record of 1:10.649 (the old record being held by Scott at 1:11.9). Fast time was set by Perry Rhoads in a Swift DB-1 at 1:10.486 (not much faster than Rusty). On Sunday morning we qualified for the National and John Burton LaRue came out to play in his Swift DB-1 making 7 Fords, the same 6 F500's and 5 FV's. LaRue qualified first with a 1:09.460 (new record). Rusty qualified 5th overall, 1st in F500's with a 1:11.070 with a Ford between him and Tom Edwards who qualified with a 1:12.450. Interestingly, the first 4 F500's qualified in a line behind the 3rd place Ford of Perry Rhoads with a Ford beside each one. George and Steve both qualified with fewer than 5 laps at the end of the field. Neither was able to start the race. At the start of the race, Rusty pulled out and passed the third and fourth place Fords and pulled alongside Perry but decided to fall in behind him. Coming onto the front straight Don Lydon passed Rusty but he managed to keep a Ford between himself and Tom Edwards. With 10 laps down, Tom and the Ford he was racing came up to lap a FV with the Ford going to the right and Tom to the left. The V saw Tom, jerked the car to the right and into the Ford bringing out a full course caution that lasted for 4 laps. At the restart John Burton LaRue and Perry pulled away again, with Rusty and Don fighting for third and Tom just behind them. Tom says he was asleep at the restart and didn't get a good jump on Rusty so once again he found himself falling behind. But eventually I noticed that Rusty and Don were slowing and Tom wasn't so I called Rusty and told him he needed to get on with it or be forced to deal with Tom. About that time Tom pushed the car too far and fell back 12 seconds which gave Rusty some breathing room. On the last lap Don and Rusty came up to lap Scott who was suffering from low RPM's. Don took Scott going into the next to last turn and Scott let Rusty around him so that he wouldn't lose any time. Going into the last turn which leads onto the dragstrip Don went wide and Rusty ducked under him for a third place overall finish and first place F500 finish with Tom finishing second and Jack finishing third. Again, Jack had a great race with the same Ford he'd raced on Saturday. Final Results - F500 Regional: 1st Rusty Cook KBS MKV Rotax Goodyear 1:10.649 2nd Tom Edwards KBS MKV AMW Goodyear 1:12.179 3rd Jack Walbran KBS MKVIII Rotax Hoosier 1:13.195 4th Scott Woodruff Red Devil AMW Goodyear 1:13.136 DNF Steve Smith KBS MKV Kawi Hoosier 1:26.010 DNS George Hedge KBS MKIII Kawi Goodyear Margin of victory: 40.34 seconds Average race speed: 87.63 MPH Final Results - F500 National: 1st Rusty Cook KBS MKV Rotax Goodyear 1:10.965 2nd Tom Edwards KBS MKV AMW Goodyear 1:11.604 3rd Jack Walbran KBS MKVIII Rotax Hoosier 1:13.162 4th Scott Woodruff Red Devil AMW Goodyear 1:12.664 DNS Steve Smith KBS MKV Kawi Hoosier DNS George Hedge KBS MKIII Kawi Goodyear Margin of victory: 13.94 seconds Average race speed: 69.23 seconds (because of the yellow) Julie Cook Fine Line Racing http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~jcook03/flr.html "There are only three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. The rest are merely games." -Ernest Hemingway From finanplans at juno.com Tue Mar 25 07:42:30 1997 From: finanplans at juno.com (bruce kapraszewski) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Memphis - Congratulations References: <199703250426.UAA05365@lists1.best.com> Message-ID: <199703251347.FAA15530@lists1.best.com> Probably the toughest combination to beat is good equipment, good crew, hard work, all held together by talent. Congratulations on your Memphis wins! From jcook03 at emory.edu Tue Mar 25 07:20:16 1997 From: jcook03 at emory.edu (Julie Cook) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Memphis - Congratulations References: <199703250426.UAA05365@lists1.best.com> <19970325.084612.7223.0.FinanPlans@juno.com> Message-ID: <199703251416.GAA05261@lists1.best.com> bruce kapraszewski wrote: > > Probably the toughest combination to beat is good equipment, good >crew, hard work, all held together by talent. Congratulations on your >Memphis wins! Thank you. Julie From 70743.1062 at compuserve.com Tue Mar 25 09:58:49 1997 From: 70743.1062 at compuserve.com (David Gill) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Bent Wheels Message-ID: <199703251705.JAA09262@lists1.best.com> On bent wheels. I, too, have bent wheels. Those in mention are the KBS wheel. Although I found someone who claimed to be able to straighten them out in Fort Worth, the price exceeded the replacement price. On new wheel purchases. I will start remote and traverse to relevant. Panasport makes a 10" wheel but, I would speculate that varying offsets are not available. Kaizer, Douglas, and KBS quickly come to mind. Kaizer's will be expensive. I have owned Douglas wheels (I paid $60+ about 18 months ago). They are, IMHO, probably the most durable, the price for durability being weight. Douglas wheels are one piece alum. KBS's still show up being the best all around wheel for my use. This plug is unsolicited and unsponsored (your welcome, Mike). From Mike.Penland at DANA.COM Tue Mar 25 15:37:39 1997 From: Mike.Penland at DANA.COM (Mike.Penland@DANA.COM) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Archive Location Message-ID: <199703252252.OAA02114@lists1.best.com> OK. Understand the fact that I'm pretty new to this Internet thing. Where would I look for the archives (do they exist ??) for the F500 mailing list. I want to see what transpired on here before I signed up. Thanks. Mike P. From Mike.Penland at DANA.COM Tue Mar 25 15:37:39 1997 From: Mike.Penland at DANA.COM (Mike.Penland@DANA.COM) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Archive Location Message-ID: <199703252252.OAA02114@lists1.best.com> OK. Understand the fact that I'm pretty new to this Internet thing. Where would I look for the archives (do they exist ??) for the F500 mailing list. I want to see what transpired on here before I signed up. Thanks. Mike P. From edc at remedy.com Wed Mar 26 09:34:00 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Archive Location Message-ID: <199703261632.IAA10015@lists1.best.com> The F500 archives are on the Oznog web site. You can find the link to the at the top of the Mailing List page. The direct URL is http://www.oznog.com/F500_archive Note that the software I'm using to generate the archives is a little rough around the edges. I haven't had much time to work on it as of late. I've fixed most of the glaring bugs, but the thread index doesn't work quite right (I'm relying on the mail agents to put proper In-Reply-To: headers in the messages. A lot of them don't. I'll rethink that scheme on the next go-around). Also from time to time the archive generator gets wedged and doesn't update the archives with new messages. If you notice that new message aren't showing up in the archives, please give me a heads up so I can give it a pull start. -----Original Message----- >From: Mike.Penland@DANA.COM [SMTP:Mike.Penland@DANA.COM] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 1997 2:38 PM To: f500@lists.best.com Subject: Archive Location OK. Understand the fact that I'm pretty new to this Internet thing. Where would I look for the archives (do they exist ??) for the F500 mailing list. I want to see what transpired on here before I signed up. Thanks. Mike P. From edc at remedy.com Wed Mar 26 09:34:00 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Archive Location Message-ID: <199703261632.IAA10015@lists1.best.com> The F500 archives are on the Oznog web site. You can find the link to the at the top of the Mailing List page. The direct URL is http://www.oznog.com/F500_archive Note that the software I'm using to generate the archives is a little rough around the edges. I haven't had much time to work on it as of late. I've fixed most of the glaring bugs, but the thread index doesn't work quite right (I'm relying on the mail agents to put proper In-Reply-To: headers in the messages. A lot of them don't. I'll rethink that scheme on the next go-around). Also from time to time the archive generator gets wedged and doesn't update the archives with new messages. If you notice that new message aren't showing up in the archives, please give me a heads up so I can give it a pull start. -----Original Message----- >From: Mike.Penland@DANA.COM [SMTP:Mike.Penland@DANA.COM] Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 1997 2:38 PM To: f500@lists.best.com Subject: Archive Location OK. Understand the fact that I'm pretty new to this Internet thing. Where would I look for the archives (do they exist ??) for the F500 mailing list. I want to see what transpired on here before I signed up. Thanks. Mike P. From edc at remedy.com Wed Mar 26 09:59:05 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Whoops! (was: Re: Clutching phase of race car setup) Message-ID: <199703261658.IAA18133@lists1.best.com> Hummm.... I goofed, I had meant to send this to the entire list, not just Bruce, but old fat fingers here must have hit the wrong key. I just noticed that it hadn't shown up in the archives. This ought to have enough controversial opinions in it to provide cannon fodder for most of you to beat me up with. Please be gentle.... :-) -----Original Message----- >From: Eric Christensen [SMTP:edc@remedy.com] Sent: Monday, March 17, 1997 11:39 AM To: 'Bruce Kapraszewski' Subject: RE: Clutching phase of race car setup. O.K. all of you F5 race hardened veterans out there, we've heard about engine selection and tire pressures relative to car setup. Would any of you care to enlighten us newcomer's and interested fans as to the art of selecting the proper clutch springs for a race setup? Oh boy Bruce, now you've opened a can of worms! :-) Clutching is a gray art form. First remove your clutches and rebuild them, replacing all worn parts. Then draw a pentagram on your workbench with the blood of a freshly killed chicken..... :-) Seriously, Olav Aaen's Clutch Tuning Handbook is the bible of clutch set-up. If you don't already have a copy, get one from Aaen Performance before you start messing with anything. Even though the clutches appear to be pretty simple devices, they are actually quite complex and have enough tunable components to leave you hopelessly lost if you don't *really* understand how they work. Before I get into this, I'm going to put the BIG disclaimer that this is highly subjective information. I'm sure there are several on the list that will disagree with something or another I say here. Please, if you have other ideas, opinions or techniques, feel free to contradict me. I am NOT an expert clutch tuner. I happen to have had the good luck to work with a couple of bona-fide experts and have learned a little bit from them along the way. As always, your mileage may vary and this advice is probably worth about as much as you paid for it. :-) The basic idea is to set the spring and flyweights in your primary (engine) clutch bring the engine to a specific RPM (hopefully right at peak HP). Then adjust the spring tension and ramp angles on the secondary (driven) clutch to get the shift characteristic you want. That shift characteristic is largely dependent on your personal preference and driving style. The theoretical ideal is a slight RPM peak at engagement, then flat at the peak HP out all the way though the shift-out phase with the RPM slowly climbing above the peak HP once you're shifted all the way out into overdrive. Again, that's theoretical... you may find that you never get there. If you do, you may find that it doesn't work all that great for your track and/or driving style. There are thousands to combinations of springs, weights, ramps, shims etc. to choose from. And in fact, there are at least 3 different primary (Polaris, Comet and Ski-Doo) and 2 different secondary (Polaris and Arctic-Cat) that are commonly used on F500s. I'm sure there are a few more that I don't know of that people have used as well. And there are several different versions of many of these clutches. The point of this being that generalizing clutch settings is virtually impossible. Even if I told you exactly what I run in my KBS Mk-8, it's almost guaranteed not to work for you. Besides, I don't think too many F500 racers would give away their "trick" clutch setups. Clutch tuning is the one area in an F500 where you can gain a competitive advantage over the other guy. So, where to start? Well, using standard Polaris primary and secondary on a AMW with the stock pipe, here's what I'd put on it as a starting point: Polaris Primary: Aaen orange spring or Polaris blue spring. I personally prefer the Aaen orange. Flyweights depend on your engine and pipe combination. For the AMW with the stock pipe I would start with something around 51 grams and adjust from there. You're shooting for about 7600 - 7700 RPM with the stock pipe on the AMW. Polaris Secondary: 34 degree ramp (helix), Polaris blue spring, 11-13 pounds of pre-tension (about the 3rd hole in the stock Polaris helix). This gives you a nice, drivable set-up that should be reasonably competitive. Now, how to tune from there.... For the starting point, you first want to focus on getting your engine RPM right. That means right at peak HP and steady through acceleration on level ground. You'll mainly play with flyweights to achieve this. Lighter weights raises the RPM, heavier weights lowers it. There are also several different curvatures on flyweights. Make sure you're using the same curvature on your weights when you're changing them or you'll end up chasing your tail. Don't use "notched" weights that have a flat spot cut in the heel. These are for drag racing sleds and are intended to increase the engagement RPM for hard acceleration off the line. In our cars we want nice smooth engagement around 4000-5000 RPM. Too high of an engagement speed induces wheel spin. Do NOT change the secondary to adjust engine RPM. I've seen too many people increase the pre-tension on their secondary to bring up their engine RPM. You are shooting yourself in the foot doing that. It will work (for awhile), but you're decreasing the efficiency of the transmission and adversely affecting the ability of the secondary to keep the shift curve flat. A trick for the Polaris (yes, I'll give away *some* tricks) is to remove shims from under the spider to minimize the belt clearance in the sheaves. In stock form the Polaris primary has about .2" of belt clearance. By removing shims to tighten up this clearance you'll get smoother engagement. You'll need a grunt tool to pull the spider in order to remove the shims. I'm not even going to try to go into spring tuning in the primary (mainly 'cause I don't understand it enough myself). Just suffice it to say that the Aaen orange and Polaris blue springs work well. Get Aaen's Clutch Tuning Handbook if you want to get into spring tuning. Once you have your RPM where you want it, you next job is to get it to remain flat. That's the job of the secondary. This again, gets into more gory detail than I really want to (or feel confident about) get into. The combination of spring and helix (ramps) is what really determines this. There are now multi angle helixes, Teflon coated helixes, and roller bearing kits that replace the standard plastic buttons that the helix slide on. These all change the shift curve of the clutches. As a general rule, if you use the Polaris Blue spring with a straight 34 degree helix and 11 pounds of pre-tension, you'll be pretty close to flat. Close enough to run in the front pack at the track anyway. The main thing we play with in the secondary is the pre-tension on the spring. This directly equates to side pressure on the belt. The idea is that the more side pressure you have on the belt, the more HP gets eaten up with belt drag and the less efficient the transmission is. What I try to do is get to the minimum side pressure that I can drive. Too little belt pressure and the clutch will backshift too fast and put you in too low of a ratio coming out of the corners (wheel spin, engine screaming, going nowhere). Too much and it won't backshift fast enough and you'll loose RPM climbing hills. Ok, this is getting way, way too long already. Again, take this as my personal thoughts which may or may not work well for you. They work for me. That's the only claim that I'm willing to make when it comes to clutch tuning. Now, I've opened the floodgates (and probably confused everyone).... there must be enough clutch tuning knowledge out there between all of us that we can collectively put together a useful summary of how to set up the clutches on an F500. Throw your thoughts in there. From nick-okc at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 11:02:05 1997 From: nick-okc at ix.netcom.com (Nick Massey) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Whoops! (was: Re: Clutching phase of race car setup) Message-ID: <199703271804.KAA19683@lists1.best.com> As always, Dr. Christnesen is a walking fountain of knowledge in F500. I must say that I have always been very impressed by Eric's openness and willingness to share so much of what he knows about our sport and class of cars. I know he helped me a lot and was always patient and understanding when I bugged him endlessly with dumb questions when I was getting started in F440 last year. His help went a long ways toward helping me achieve the success I had last year. Thanks Eric for helping all of us who are trying to learn. There's not too much I can add to this, but a couple questions and comments do come to mind: You wrote: >Seriously, Olav Aaen's Clutch Tuning Handbook is the bible of clutch = >set-up. If you don't already have a copy, get one from Aaen Performance = >before you start messing with anything. If you need to get into some really technical questions, Jeff at Aaen Performance is very knowledgeable and quite helpful in trying to help you sort out what's going on if you have a problem. He's a little hard to catch sometimes, but keep trying. >The theoretical ideal is a slight RPM peak at = >engagement, then flat at the peak HP out all the way though the = >shift-out phase with the RPM slowly climbing above the peak HP once = >you're shifted all the way out into overdrive. Again, that's = >theoretical... you may find that you never get there. If you do, you may = >find that it doesn't work all that great for your track and/or driving = >style. When you say this may or may not work well for your track or driving style, can you give an example of a track, or a driving style, where you would not want that? >So, where to start? Well, using standard Polaris primary and secondary = >on a AMW with the stock pipe, here's what I'd put on it as a starting = >point: Is there anything other than the stock pipe? >Polaris Primary: >Aaen orange spring or Polaris blue spring. I personally prefer the Aaen = >orange. Flyweights depend on your engine and pipe combination. For the = >AMW with the stock pipe I would start with something around 51 grams and = >adjust from there. You're shooting for about 7600 - 7700 RPM with the = >stock pipe on the AMW.=20 I run a Polaris primary with blue spring on an AMW with stock pipe. I use the N1 weight which is 54 grams. Last year it ran about 7700 to 7800 rpm, but since rebuilding the top end over the winter, I now pull about 7900 to 8000 rpm. > >Polaris Secondary: >34 degree ramp (helix), Polaris blue spring, 11-13 pounds of pre-tension = >(about the 3rd hole in the stock Polaris helix). > >This gives you a nice, drivable set-up that should be reasonably = >competitive.=20 This was the set up I used, but recently I had to lesson the pre-tension to the 2nd hole because it was shifting out too slow and backshifting too quick. I'd come out of a turn, hit the gas, and would immediately run up to 8000 to 8100 rpm for a few moments while the secondary tried to overcome the tension and shift out. Power wasn't getting to the ground quick enough. In a car with manual transmission, it would be like staying in each gear too long and reving too high before shifting. > >Now, how to tune from there.... >The main thing we play with in the secondary is the pre-tension on the = >spring. This directly equates to side pressure on the belt. The idea is = >that the more side pressure you have on the belt, the more HP gets eaten = >up with belt drag and the less efficient the transmission is. What I try = >to do is get to the minimum side pressure that I can drive. Too little = >belt pressure and the clutch will backshift too fast and put you in too = >low of a ratio coming out of the corners (wheel spin, engine screaming, = >going nowhere). Too much and it won't backshift fast enough and you'll = >loose RPM climbing hills.=20 I may well be misunderstanding something (as I probably know just enough now to be dangerous), but isn't this the reverse of what happens with the secondary? As I understand it, too LITTLE belt pressure (i.e. spring tension) would allow the belt to move too quickly down into the secondary, and therefore shifting into a higher gear too quickly and cause you to bog or loose rpm under load. Too MUCH pressure slows the speed of the shift out, keeps you higher out on the secondary longer, and therefore effectively keeps you in a lower gear too long. (The problem I had recently). Am I misunderstanding something? > >Ok, this is getting way, way too long already. Again, take this as my = >personal thoughts which may or may not work well for you. They work for = >me. That's the only claim that I'm willing to make when it comes to = >clutch tuning.=20 Thanks for a great explanation Eric. Nick Massey Oklahoma City F500, #88 KBS Mk-7/AMW/Hoosier From nick-okc at ix.netcom.com Thu Mar 27 14:54:16 1997 From: nick-okc at ix.netcom.com (nick-okc@ix.netcom.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Whoops! (was: Re: Clutching phase of race car setup) Message-ID: <199703272156.NAA09348@lists1.best.com> As always, Dr. Christensen is a walking fountain of knowledge in F500. I must say that I have always been very impressed by Eric's openness and willingness to share so much of what he knows about our sport and class of cars. I know he helped me a lot and was always patient and understnading when I bugged him endlessly with dumb questions when I was getting started in F440 last year. His help went a long ways toward helping me achieve the success I had last year. Thanks Eric for helping all of us who are tyring to learn. There's not too much I can add to this, but a couple of questions and comments do come to mind: On 03/26/97 08:59:05 you wrote: > >Seriously, Olav Aaen's Clutch Tuning Handbook is the bible of clutch >set-up. If you don't already have a copy, get one from Aaen Performance >before you start messing with anything. If you need to get into some really technical questions, Jeff at Aaen Performance is very knowledgeable and quite helpful in trying to help you sort out what's going on if have a problem. He's a little hard to catch sometimes, but keep trying. >The theoretical ideal is a slight RPM peak at >engagement, then flat at the peak HP out all the way though the >shift-out phase with the RPM slowly climbing above the peak HP once >you're shifted all the way out into overdrive. Again, that's >theoretical... you may find that you never get there. If you do, you may >find that it doesn't work all that great for your track and/or driving >style. When you say this may or may not work well for your track or driving style, can you give an example of a track, or a driving style, where you would not want that? > >So, where to start? Well, using standard Polaris primary and secondary >on a AMW with the stock pipe, here's what I'd put on it as a starting >point: Is there anything other than the stock pipe? > >Polaris Primary: >Aaen orange spring or Polaris blue spring. I personally prefer the Aaen >orange. Flyweights depend on your engine and pipe combination. For the >AMW with the stock pipe I would start with something around 51 grams and >adjust from there. You're shooting for about 7600 - 7700 RPM with the >stock pipe on the AMW. I run a Polaris primary with blue spring on an AMW with stock pipe. I use the N1 weight which is 54 grams. Last year it ran about 7700 to 7800 rpm, but since rebuilding the top end over the winter, I now pull about 7900 to 8000 rpm. > >Polaris Secondary: >34 degree ramp (helix), Polaris blue spring, 11-13 pounds of pre-tension >(about the 3rd hole in the stock Polaris helix). > >This gives you a nice, drivable set-up that should be reasonably >competitive. This was the setup I used, but recently I had to lessen the pre-tension to the 2nd hole position because it was shifting out too slow and backshifting too quick. I'd come out of a turn, hit the gas, and would immediately run up to 8000 to 8100 rpm for a few moments while the secondary tried to overcome the tension and shift out. Power wasn't getting to the ground quick enough. In a car with manual transmission, it would be like staying in each gear too long and reving too high before shifting. > >Now, how to tune from there.... > >The main thing we play with in the secondary is the pre-tension on the >spring. This directly equates to side pressure on the belt. The idea is >that the more side pressure you have on the belt, the more HP gets eaten >up with belt drag and the less efficient the transmission is. What I try >to do is get to the minimum side pressure that I can drive. Too little >belt pressure and the clutch will backshift too fast and put you in too >low of a ratio coming out of the corners (wheel spin, engine screaming, >going nowhere). Too much and it won't backshift fast enough and you'll >loose RPM climbing hills. I may well be misunderstanding something (as I probably now know just enough to be dangerous), but isn't this the reverse of what happens with the secondary? As I understand it, too LITTLE belt pressure (i.e. spring tension) would allow the belt to move too quickly down into the secondary, and therefore shifting into a higher gear too quickly and cause you to bog or loose rpm under load. Too MUCH belt pressure slows the speed of the shift out (and hurts efficiency), keeps you higher out on the secondary longer, and therefore effectively keeps you in a lower gear too long. (Which is the problem I had recently) At least that's how I understood it. Am I misunderstanding something or only getting part of the picture? > >Ok, this is getting way, way too long already. Again, take this as my >personal thoughts which may or may not work well for you. They work for >me. That's the only claim that I'm willing to make when it comes to >clutch tuning. Thanks for a great explanation Eric. Nick Massey Oklahoma City F500, #88 KBS Mk-7/AMW/Hoosier From Chekerdpst at aol.com Fri Mar 28 15:49:59 1997 From: Chekerdpst at aol.com (Chekerdpst@aol.com) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Whoops! (was: Re: Clutching phase of race car setup) Message-ID: <199703282251.OAA08240@lists1.best.com> Hello all- I am not currently an owner of a Formula 440/500 car, but do have an active interest in the series. I am currently a student at The vehicle Research Institute at Western Washington University, and have worked with Don Hanley (Race Cars, Inc.) developing his current aerodynamic package. I would like to hear from anyone who has seen the new car- there are only a few out there currently. I believe Ed Kincaid (#88 black Red Devil) is one of them. Please don't be afraid to comment on the body design-my background is in complete car design, not styling (which may be evident). At any rate, the car does work well in the wind tunnel, and I would like to hear the opinions of people who own competitive cars. From edc at remedy.com Fri Mar 28 17:08:59 1997 From: edc at remedy.com (Eric Christensen) Date: Wed May 31 20:15:17 2006 Subject: Whoops! (was: Re: Clutching phase of race car setup) Message-ID: <199703290220.SAA28622@lists1.best.com> As always, Dr. Christnesen is a walking fountain of knowledge in F500. I'm hardly an expert... but I'm willing to share what little I do know. Well, at least up to the point where you start showing up in my mirrors. :-) When you say this may or may not work well for your track or driving style, can you give an example of a track, or a driving style, where you would not want that? Clutching all all comprimise. For example, a short twisty track, or an autocross, where you never get out into overdrive you might soften up the driven clutch so that it'll backshift quickly to get better jump out of the corner. Or in very slippery conditions, you may incred the pre-tension to help avoid wheelspin. Or, if you're the type of driver who's very agressive (i.e. always on the gas, braking against the throttle, throwing the car sideways in the corners) you may want to go sfoter on the driven to keep the RPMs up all the time. >on a AMW with the stock pipe, here's what I'd put on it as a starting >point: Is there anything other than the stock pipe? I've seen a couple custom pipes on AMWs. Also putting a sliencer on the stock pipe changes it's tuning a little and may change the peak RPM you want to hit. I don't know of any commercially available aftermarket pipes though. I may well be misunderstanding something (as I probably know just enough now to be dangerous), but isn't this the reverse of what happens with the secondary? As I understand it, too LITTLE belt pressure (i.e. spring tension) would allow the belt to move too quickly down into the secondary, and therefore shifting into a higher gear too quickly and cause you to bog or loose rpm under load. Too MUCH pressure slows the speed of the shift out, keeps you higher out on the secondary longer, and therefore effectively keeps you in a lower gear too long. (The problem I had recently). Am I misunderstanding something? Nope, you've got it right Nick, but remember that the tradeoff is that you loose efficency with more belt pressure. It's all about finding a happy medium. According to Olav Aaen, you shold never adjust your RPM with the secondary, only the primary. The secondary's entire purpose in life is to get the shift curve as flat as possible with the least amount of belt tension you can arrange for. If you're bogging down with less belt tension, it could be that you're geared a little too high, and compensating for it with the clutches. It'll work, but in that case you wouldn't be getting the utmost efficency out of your clutches. By the way, a slight RPM peak (like 200-400 RPM) right at the beginning of the shift curve is correct. As long as it settles down to you're peak HP RPM right away and stays pretty flat until you're shifted all the way out you're in great shape. Humm... I'll try to get a picture of the theoretical ideal shift curve out on the web site over the weekend. This one's a case where a picture is worth a thousand words. ---- Eric D. Christensen Web Janitor Remedy Corporation edc@remedy.com (415) 903- 5244 http://www.remedy.com Oznog Motorsports edc@oznog.com (408) 223-8036 http://www.oznog.com "86.4% of all people are idiots. The rest of us just have to learn to live with them."